Netlabel l.llllllll summary

one reason why greg (aka black thread) stopped selling on BC

personally I have no problem with using either
bandcamp would be my preference

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I dont understand the arguments for not keeping it free… and why saddle the project with running costs when there are other choices.
Some kind of visual identity would be good- a set type face and point size. perhaps. A set filter for images.perhaps a design with two images which work around a cut out logo background and foreground. Sorry- i dont know why im giving corny examples you know what a visual identity is.
My other question is what should the label stand for:
stuff people (like us ) like?
stuff people think is under represented?
Stuff using technology in a new and interesting way?

richard

i don’t know anything about CASH but i like bandcamp a lot. easy to use, nice interface, connects listeners to artists (and listeners to listeners), and it provides a great way to discover new music.

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If bandcamp is the preferred option, then free plays are limited is it not. That would then incur a cost at some point, for someone.

Completely free would be great, but searchable/discoverable in bandcamp is also great.

I am not 100% sure, but I think there’s no limit on free plays on BC. There’s a limit on free downloads, if I am correct(200/month).

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I’m new to lines, and have been following some of the recent discussion about the netlabel.

I had actually explored CASHmusic.js a while back. I happened upon it and thought the interactive audio players were a really cool idea. I did not get very far (no fault of cash, I’m just terrible at following-through on personal projects)…just got the local dev environment set up and some random mp3 files playing and pausing with one of their basic-interface players.

I decided to explore a little bit more this evening to get a better idea about the platform…it was a little unclear from just reading their site and my past experience with the js lib, but after messing around and setting something up I think I have a better idea.

The CASH Music platform itself basically offers you a handful of tools to paywall asset files (that you’ve uploaded to google drive or Amazon S3). By paywall I mean things like “enter an email”, “enter a download code”, “pay some amount via stripe or paypal”. It also has a sort-of WISYWIG editor for building a basic static site hosted at your-username.cashmusic.org. For an example, here’s the page I created while testing this stuff out (disclaimer: please do not buy my in-progress recordings, feel free to download them to see how the service works if you’d like but they are not in a state to be consumed heh). Important note: there doesn’t seem to be a “stream” widget you can add to the your-username.cashmusic.org site (at least one that’s not custom coded…and it was a little unclear if it was cool to add custom code/cdn’d libs/etc. to the static site).

The CASHmusic.js lib is basically a bunch of helpful ui elements for building a custom artist or label site. It allows you to embed the elements from the CASH Music platform described in the above paragraph to any site. There’s also several streaming players.

Basically, the open source stuff CASH Music is doing is really cool. Based on the use case described here (a site people could go to both stream & download releases), it seems like the tools could be used to build something custom for the lines netlabel. That being said, the tech hurdle seemed to be (definitely understandbly…see my previous comment on personal projects :grin:) the main cause for the stagnation of the netlabel idea a few months back. Based on what I know about CASH Music now, I don’t think the tools it provides are the ticket to overcome that particular hurdle.

IMO, using bandcamp (at least at first) seems like it would be an easy way to get the idea off the ground (and it would also provide a large network for people to find the releases which is definitely cool).

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Thanks so much for explaining that. I am much less confused about cashmusic now.

It sounds like it could be a complementary addition to the original plan (publish HTML to gh-pages with the help of Lektor, and host audio on archive.org.) That plan is still doable, by the way. I have most of the HTML and CSS done. I have the JavaScript for an audio player that uses svg for visualization. I have been procrastinating on some of the svg work for no good reason. I could just ditch that in favor of the cashmusic player.

Or bandcamp.

I’m hearing some… ambivalence? About bandcamp’ cool but still capitalist nature? About charging or not for releases? About compensating or not artists participating in our releases? Maybe being less ambivalent about these things would suggest a direction…

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Agreed, both sound like solid paths forward. Also agree that firming up the requirements/goals/consensus seems like it could make the right decision a little easier to deduce.

Some random technical thoughts:

  • working with the CASH music platform + archive.org in lieu of google drive/S3…seems like that shouldn’t be a problem if some form of the paywall stuff is needed. EDIT: actually looked into it, and it’d be good to verify the archive.org TOS to see if hosting something non-free (or pay-what-you-want) is okay if that’s a decision.
  • For the CASHmusic.js player…the docs keep mentioning things like "path/to/song1.mp3"…I’m assuming these don’t need to be local to the static file system and can be urls out to archive.org. I’m happy to verify this assumption if the investigation would be helpful.
  • Probably would be ideal to have both lossless (for downloading) and mp3 (for streaming) versions of any netlabel releases on archive.org if that’s the path decided.

When we were talking about hosting audio on archive.org the assumption was that it was a completely non commercial effort. It’s only this recent mention of bandcamp that has us considering what we might or might not want to do with money that could be raised by selling any music we release.

Can’t speak to cashmusic.js but my own experiments with web audio have shown me that audio files need not live in the same domain as the audio player.

If, for some reason, we decided to pursue a commercial strategy with cashmusic and not bandcamp, I’d probably recommend using S3 for audio files.

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part of what drew me to monome in the first place was that the product is a platform, with an open invitation to extend. i’ve never been the same since. the thing i love about the infrastructural ideas that have been bounced around with regard to l.llllllll is that the proposed structures are inspiring by themselves (ie, pre-content). i respect that there is work involved in executing and maintaining this idea, and unfortunately all i have to offer at the moment is encouragement - but what i’m getting at is this: in the same way that the 40h changed the entire concept of a controller, i really believe that l.llllllll could change the way the world shares music. netlabels are a dime a dozen. sure, we will make some awesome jams, but for me the music is secondary. i honestly believe that l.llllllll has the potential to be an exemplar for the future of media.

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i’m feeling inclined to steer towards “art” and away from “commerce” at this point.

so aiming for low cost solutions is key. also leveraging the servers i’m already paying for: i have a digitalocean server which hosts monome.org-- it has a transfer allowance that certainly isn’t being nearly approached, and could be upgraded for very little per month.

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To me, that suggests sticking with the original plan of hosting HTML on gh-pages (or your DO server), running Lektor on a server (could be the same one, I was going to donate a DO server of my own, but whatever) and hosting audio on archive.org, or the same DO server.

I can get past my stupid little procrastination block by chucking my handmade audio player idea and use a pre-made audio player, quickly churn through the Lektor tasks, et voilà, we have a netlabel.

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i could help with the lektor. and while i love custom everything, to just get started we could begin with the cash player, if that makes sense. changing a player is not a huge issue if we wanted to change.

as important, i have to edit/refine the text and submit final “guidelines” for ratification amongst all ye. to ensure the mission/purpose/process is worked out.

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Just wanted to comment and quote for emphasis…

%100

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The art vs commerce thing isn’t so cut and dry. Artists still rely on their work to make a living, and doing so doesn’t have to compromise the work. There are many interesting models that still involve people paying for art in a healthy way.

I’m ok with this endeavour being free to access, but there are people in this community who try to make some portion of their living through their art and music. For them (myself included) it will be a trade off to participate in a label like this vs release the music ourselves where it has the chance to contribute to our income.

If it isn’t this tradeoff, it’s the other one: “as a label runner, which artists should I work with to increase the chances of our label’s economic success?”

Contrast that with our current model, which involves community-driven curation with purely artistic intent. While there are many avenues for commercial music distribution, there aren’t many l.lllllllll in the world.

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also happy to help on any front-end related tasks/QA’ing/whatever you need!

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Yes, totally agree. And a lot of the music I contribute to thing here (like Disquiet etc) is different than what I release on Bandcamp… or is more about experimentation that may lead to an “official” release at some point.

I love the idea of a net label that supports experimentation and doesn’t have to worry about commerce at all. On the same note, it is worth surfacing the potential economic issues and questions that will come up at some point.

More music is always a good thing, and if we want to work together to create something unique and free then that’s awesome. I’m all for it and will definitely participate in whatever way I’m able.

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Mega bump…

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