Yea… this is always in an interesting topic. I think the simplest way to summarize it is that, to me, the sum of a modular system should be greater than its parts. Sure - the sound is the sound. But I should also feel compelled to play the instrument.

Some factors to consider:

  • Playability - general layout of components, tactile functions, encoder/knob operation
  • Interface - intuitive or not (you may actually prefer a module with a convoluted interface), clearly labeled hardware or not (you may prefer something more undefined), menus or knob-per-function
  • Format - how much HP are you willing to invest in at a time, tradeoff between size/function is an issue for you or not

One example: I have a case with mostly Bastl modules. They are all wooden paneled if you aren’t familiar with them. Mine are also mostly DIY. The Bastl system is mostly complete as all the major functions are covered but I have room for more. For some reason, I have a really hard time filling this case with traditional aluminum paneled modules - its totally stupid. Also, the Bastl modules tend to share a lot of commonalities with trigger and knob placement and the some of the buttons are labeled the same. You can get around most of their modules once you pick up on this stuff. Its just cohesive that way. I would not put my CV Trinity in another case as it makes more sense to me in the Bastl case, even without considering looks. They seem to have designed it to work with their other modules and that works for me. My Make Noise stuff is more all over the place and I like that about that system. I also really appreciate their work and like supporting them so if I have a gap/function to fill in that case, I will usually look for a solution in their product lineup first. I know… its stupid. But when I see the whole system together, it makes me want to play it.

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ill definitely take this into consideration. thank you!

also yuh. ive looked at the bastl stuff before and i would imagine that they dont really pair well with other companies’ stuff. from what i can tell they look great for experimentation, and are made to compliment each other.

also i wouldnt say thats stupid. if a certain aesthetic is what makes you want to create music, then take full advantage of that aesthetic! :slight_smile:

well…as said previously google is your friend.

In terms of mixer you got many many options…if you would like a performative mixer you can look at the k-mix, the roland aira one and some of the dj mixer around (I have used the Allen & Heath black one…forgot the model).
But also it can be done with a good controller and your laptop (and a good sound card of course).

For drum machien it is the same story…
You either use software and a good external controller (push2 from Ableton for example…) or hardware (elektron rytm or Dave SMith Tempest) but thsi will cost you money…
You need something that does analog/digital sound generation and samples

Loop pedal…
Again software (mlr, mlrv, or many other sampling software) with controller (monome definitely for me on this) or hardware (boss loop station is a must).

Options are endless as the music tools industry is massive
there is no rule in what way you can do music…teh only thing that matter is your creativity.

As many have already said, make yourself comfortable with some software…explore free options and then you can build your workflow over the years…

In my case I started making music in 1994…and still I move things around in my workflow sometimes.

Do not ever forget…it is all about having fun and enjoy above everything!!!

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thank you for this detailed explanation! it’s helped tremendously.

i’ve been looking at the boss loopstation and the elektron rytm and it seems you have good experience w/ them, so i think i’ll definitely be getting these.

maybe i misunderstood something, and $800/mo refers to your “disposable” income (a deeply privileged concept), and not things like rent/food. that would kind of explain some oddities.

there are some things about your stated goals and attitude that strike me as very strange. i don’t mean to pick on you, but these are symptomatic of stuff that bothers me about discourse around music production tools.

you say you have a classical music education. so do i, and many (or even most) others here. in my case, i started piano at 2 or 3, violin at 5, continued through post-graduate conservatory, and have never stopped playing music. this doesn’t make me special, it’s actually quite typical for the users (and founders) of this forum. (in general, i try to remember to assume people are more knowledgable than me, not less.)

to me, your query reads analogously to a question like, “i know nothing about music theory or performance technique, i can’t recognize any orchestral instruments on sight, but i am interested in creating music similar to bach’s ‘partita in d minor for solo violin,’ debussy’s ‘syrinx’ for solo flute, and zorn’s ‘carny’ for solo piano. to this end i am going to purchase a cello, rhodes 88, tympani set, marimba and bass clarinet. what else should i buy?”

the answer is obvious. you need to self-educate on fundamentals, you need to get one instrument and practice with it.

it’s amazing to me that you say you are going to purchase ableton and max 7 before trying one of the many free tools that we’ve mentioned. for example, puredata is similar to max, and there are a wealth of pedagogical resources surrounding it. for example, here are tom erbe’s notes and PD patches for his music 172 classes at UCSD. Csound is another extremely sophisticated piece of software with decades of pedagogical resources built around it. there is a steep learning curve to be sure, but many others have climbed it before.

anyways. sorry to rant again. i promise i won’t do it anymore and hope that you can see how this line of questioning might be frustrating for people who have put in the hours and years to become familiar with this stuff. there is no magic bullet piece of gear, or paragraph of text, that will help if you can’t even be bothered to google first.

ok, all that said… in the spirit of the original question, i’d recommend not discounting keyboard-based, self-contained electronic instruments, before diving into modular.

these two instruments are affordable, road-worthy, performance ready, surprisingly flexible, and give you deep access to the underlying signal paths:
analog: korg ms-20 mini
digital: alesis micron

but, if you already have a white whale, then you presumably have a grid device and a eurorack case/power. if that’s the case, i guess you might as well invest another $400-600 on at least an oscillator, filter, VCA, and output module, so that you can actually use your WW to make sound. (i picked those particular modules and vendors kind of at random. there are literally hundreds of different euro manufacturers now, and minimal differences between many of their designs, so i honestly don’t think it matters much when you are just getting started.)

if you don’t have a grid and euro case yet, then i’d honestly just sell the WW and get more comfortable with synthesis technique in general before you go down the modular rabbit hole.

i also recommend reading a book or two. something not too technical to begin with like, i dunno, charles dodge or [allen strange] (https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Music-Systems-Techniques-Controls/dp/0697036022). (many of the book recommendations you will find elsewhere on this forum are for learning how to develop DSP software or build hardware, not about learning the fundamentals of electronic music technique.)

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this is correct. sorry, i shouldve made this point clearer.

i just got destroyed lmao. but in all seriousness. i definitely understand where youre coming from now.

again, sorry. i should be clear when stating things like that. i have been looking at max 7 and ableton live, but i am interested in the free tools previously mentioned and plan to familiarize myself with them before i purchase anything else.

again, when you put it like this i can understand why it’s so frustrating to you.

ive heard of both, and (like i said in a previous reply to you) im definitely interested in the korg. im assuming i should read the books you linked and understand the software before buying it though.

i have a white whale, meadowphysics, and sputnik 4 tap because i bought them on a whim. i liked what i heard on the monome website, and i figured i could use them by themselves to figure out how these things work. i dont have a grid or case because i thought i could just buy them later.

thank you for these suggestions! (thank you for every suggestion)! i’ll be sure to make use of all of these.

(also sorry if i seemed arrogant or pretentious or whatever. definitely wasnt trying to come across like that.)

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i picked up vail’s book again and had forgotten that it’s really kind of more about ogling vintage synths than really explaining techniques. that’s why i edited the link. allen strange’s book is wonderful, but sadly out of print - i had no idea that my early edition was worth so much! jeez. anyways you can probably find a PDF somewhere, and it’s well worth looking.

[redacted. not my place.]

edit: sorry, i forgot you mentioned the ms-20. but yes, it’s a great little analog synth, especially for live performance / travelling. it’s semi-modular and a good way to get started with understanding patch construction without breaking the bank.

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for sure! i’ll done some research and see what i can found out about the allen strange book.

just did some googling and can’t find anything on sputnik. care to explain what’s up with the company?

[edited and partially redacted. this is not my soapbox.]

i don’t love clones in general - i think they have a tendency to drive out innovation in the industry, because they leapfrog the r+d effort required to make new things.

there can be a fine line between cloning and inspiration. almost everyone using old design elements are in the latter category, of course. it’s a fine thing to continue refining a design legacy, but at some point it strikes me as abusive.

but in purchasing synths, as in any other consumer action, i think as responsible citizens we should all carefully consider the design and business practices we support.

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Firstly, I had no idea Don Buchla’s son was part of this community. My condolences to you and your family; this must be a hard time.

I want to commend you for the comment above. Coming at this more from a ‘pro audio’/engineering point of view, I’m sick to death of the incessant clamor for and supply of yet another U47 clone, or 1073 clone, or C12 clone or whatever–at the expense sometimes of people who are truly doing new, interesting, and sometimes–oftentimes–better things.

You said it perfectly.

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i noticed that your name appeared as ezra buchla, but i didnt actually think you were related to THE buchla! woah - im honored!!

(also it seems like something terrible has happened to you and your family. i hope everything is okay!)

and i wasnt aware of this at the time of buying it. i think that ill definitely sell the sputnik module i have then. i feel pretty bad just for owning it now honestly

Always Google first, even if you don’t get anywhere. Otherwise you’re saying your time is more valuable than ours (and I’m pretty sure you don’t think that!)

So you’re 21 right? I reckon you’ve got another 50 years of high musical productivity, then maybe another 20 years when things start to amble a little. Play the long game.

I’m not trying to suggest you have a ‘life plan’ or anything daft like that. In reality my 20s were all over the shop, but back then I had lots of time and energy. Now I’m in my (late) 30s I get to use all the colour and experience gathered in more fruitful ways.

But maybe try to tame (just a little) the abundance of energy you possess and focus it. You need to figure out how to do that yourself, different things work for different people. Nowadays I like to set myself short projects, e.g. try running that Volca Keys you own through some of your guitar pedals, or reading a book, or learning a skill. I have a list of them, it’s supposed to help me see the bigger picture. Sometimes this works.

(Also, I’ve always been an early adopter of technology but really you can’t beat a good old fashioned paper notebook for organising your thoughts.)

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@zebra

First of all I have also just realised who you are…my deep condolences.

as you were talking about clones of your father (and others work) in the 70s…I would mention Befaco (https://www.befaco.org/en/)…their rampage is great.

@landlockedlight
I would take Ezra suggestion in great consideration (and not because he is Don Buchla’s son) because they are very thought of.

As he says, eveyone has gone the steep learning curve here and in the music production in general.
Everyone has most probably first tried the free tools and then gone through the more expensive hardware path.
There is no magic instrument and no magic tool that get your music appears amazing to you and others.

You get a lot of people (in my experience especially in the sound engineering world) that talks about gear and not about the theory around the sound processing techiniques…this is not healthy and will get you towards a downward spiral of not understanding what you are actually doing and just spending lots of money in the newest tool available (a bit like buying the new iphone every year).

Get yourself familiarise with sound techniques, I would suggest three other books as well:

Miller Pluckett book: http://msp.ucsd.edu/techniques.htm
Loadbang: http://www.pd-tutorial.com/
How to make a noise: http://noisesculpture.com/

Again my two pence
Good Luck

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definitely not! im sorry if this was the impression i gave!!

thank you for explaining it like this. it helps a lot when i can see that people were like me and all that jazz.

for sure! id love to get started circuit bending, and putting the guitar pedals with my synths, etc. but it seems hard to start these kind of experiments. (granted i havent done a lot of research.) as for reading a book and learning a skill, i think i have enough material to last me a while thanks to this thread!![quote=“sam, post:54, topic:5072”]
(Also, I’ve always been an early adopter of technology but really you can’t beat a good old fashioned paper notebook for organising your thoughts.)
[/quote]

can not agree more.

these links are really excellent resources. honestly i think PD is at least as useful as MSP, and has become a de facto standard in academia, for good reason. it doesn’t have all the UI bells and whistles, and it doesn’t have Jitter, but on the other hand it has Gem and other neat stuff. i’ve seen people complain about the documentation but have never personally found it lacking (at least in the last decade.)

pd also has serious benefits in software production - it’s an excellent tooling environment for prototyping DSP algorithms in C/C++, and patches can be embedded in other applications using libpd - now even in things like Android or Unity. the power of open source… for me this extreme portability is much more useful than integration with Ableton.

i’ve looked at the befacto stuff, haven’t played with it but it seems like a solid lineup of essentials, and i really like that there are kits.

i’m going to edit my posts above… it’s not my place to call out people by name, or tell anyone what to buy or not buy, and i don’t mean to turn this thread into a soapbox.

and thanks everyone for your condolences, i really appreciate it. (for anyone who’s not aware, don buchla is indeed my dad, and he passed away last month after a long illness.)

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(great, this thread turns out to be an excellent resource for the electronic musician)
i’d like to recommend the serge gold book here
some parts are serge focused – which is interesting btw–, and one part is sound related. anyway essential knowledge for any (electronic) musician i guess.

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it makes a lot of sense when you explain it like this. thank you!

will do! thank you very much for these reccomendations - theyve been added to my list of things i need to check out! :slight_smile:

ill be sure to check it out (its been added to the huge list of things i need to check out now) - thank you! it certainly sounds interesting.

I agree. Maybe this thread can become “sticky”, similar to this one on muffs: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44345

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And I add Musimathics to the reading list :slight_smile: very readable and highly informative

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