yeah, super interesting!

i’d say: absolutely. norns is a fun platform to program, it’s pretty easy to learn, and i think for many coders, it’s very satisfying to “solve” the puzzle of implementing a spec. (that satisfaction being amplified many-fold if the result is useful for creative purposes and immediately serving a need in one’s extended social circle.)

there’s definitely room in this forum for some kind of matchup between spec-writers and implementers. (the “Norns: ideas” thread is a good start, but as you are aware, there can be a great gulf between an idea and a workable idea.)

so yeah, give us that MVP scope! we’re ready

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Oh man, I got that vibe like when I got my first job in the video game industry. Love it :slight_smile:

So I’ll cook something up, won’t be expecting anyone to execute on it, I’ll do it because it’s fun, and then we’ll see where it goes.

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I’m certainly interested in this. As well as my things for Norns (primarily Islands right now but there will be more) and the stuff I make for my own use I also make commercial music software a Pagefall limited - currently just on iOS but the next app will be Mac and Windows (and will be out in the next month hopefully). When I focus on enterprise software (which has tended to be my day job) I’m always interested in the “job to be done” rather than technology for technologies sake. I think the same principle largely applies for music software BUT there is an aspect of “is this algorithm/technology/artefact/whatever” interesting in a musical sense and can I parameterise it. One reason my music practice tends to involve a lot of coding is that I’m trying to capture that.

So yeah - can’t promise anything more than conversation but you never know…

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Conceptually, Awake on Norns is the Deluge, where each push on the vertical row is a note that’s part of the scale.

As a concept, what’s missing is polyphony, access to notes above and below the default eight grid (which to some extent Animators solves in a fashion similar to Deluge, though it cycles rather than transports, and the octave triggers in Awake’s second track, of course), a step count beyond the sixteen and multiple patterns. Deluge allows for endless pattern length, which sounds like a shangri-la in theory but it’s in practice pretty cumbersome. If you look at patterns like bars in sheet music, and instead make it easy to move between patterns and potentially chain them together, not entirely unlike Novation’s approach with the Circuit and the Launchpad Pro MK3, it actually makes more sense to divide it like this and then instead allow for structuring them in creative ways.

I’m a classically trained pianist to begin with, before I got into this kind of music, and the pattern structure with looping and rephrasing makes total sense to me. A sonata works after the same principle. Play until this point, repeat once and after that, move to the next point. Repeat THAT section, then proceed. There’s even instructions in the note sheets on how to approach the same section in different ways, depending if you’re on the first or second loop.

So pattern structure in itself for many kinds of musicians, is a structure that just makes sense. It’s when you need to take all the pieces and make them into something bigger, where many sequencers fall short. The cry from the Elektron community after song mode into the newer devices show to some extent that structure beyond being creative within 64 steps is something almost everyone wants, even if your act is all improvisation or very defined.

So yeah, that’s what I’m aiming for. We’ll see what comes out of it.

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ok, yeah totally

so you want

  1. expositato

  2. develipolomonitomada

  3. recapitipitipatatofatimanapa

develipolomonitomoada should probably end up in some related key if you are human, or some gnarly naranar if you are beethoven. if you are stravinksies then… i dunno i guess you are thinking more about metric modulations here. woof!

so.

what does it mean to be a sonata seequincer?

some guesses:

  • ability to reiterate and transpose subsequences
  • ability to layer transposed subsewquences? like yer stravinskies and yer beethovens, you wanna play yer theme two or three times at once in the recapitipitipatatofatimanapa subzeqctionionza.

so… awake is a funny little guy. bottom row is a transposition metasequence. it is “clazzicly minimalizist” b/c the stucture is generated by numerical relationzhip between zubzequence and main zequence. it will repeat at the LCM of zubzeq and maynzeq, so yeah, you’re right, that’s just basically un-sonatish.

so alright! i see some things. basically you want patterns. then you want song mode where patterns are put in orders. if your beethovenish you definitely want to be able to repeat half of pattern A plus half of pattern B. (woof!) and you definitely want to then also metasequence the transposition of a-slice and b-slice. if your stravisnkyish you also need metric modulation yea?

it’s a lot!

super curious to know more! perhaps i am over-complicating and all you want is something like:

mode A: 4 pages of 8x16 grid sequence. such that (i dunno):

  • grid column sets base scale position,
  • one of the norns knobs adds additional offset (so you get more than 8 possible values per stage)
  • one of the norns keys selects which pattern you edit

plus, mode B: 1 page of 8x16 gtrid metasequence. such that… well here i really don’t know.

  • i guess columns select patterns.
  • maybe half a column selects a pattern,
  • half column selects transposition metasequence pattern.
  • maybe something selects loop points for pattern instance.
  • because we can, one could select e.g. stage length metasequence pattern i guess.
  • really could go a lot of ways here. super curious!

[sorry i am a bit tired and have been indoors for a very long time. also i have been attempting to learn a. tcherepnin piano sonatas. which are sort of trolling sonata form while doing it really well. consider this trollish post a sort of desparate attempt at self-amusement in the face of endless ennui.]

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I think we could start easy, like just enable compositions with poly and beyond sixteen steps, as well as structure. Got some ideas already, will post something here soon :blush:

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I’m not done. But it’ll look along the lines of this, when I am.
ComposerForNorns.pdf (24.7 KB)

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I’m curious how you imagine handling polyphony. Adding polyphony to a traditional step sequencer seems like it would add a lot of complexity to the UI. I know there are ways to solve this, but I think there’s a reason you don’t often see it outside a piano roll in a DAW. It only works in Loom and Animator because those are very untraditional, non-linear sequencers which aren’t built for composing sonatas.

I don’t say this to discourage, just musing., looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

edit: didnt notice you posted that pdf as I was typing. ok, so what I think you want is sort of like a daw piano roll on the grid, where you can vertically “scroll” through the upper and lower octaves with a norns encoder, correct?

double edit: the main issue I have with this approach is how do I know what the current range of notes is as a user? On a simpler “single octave” sequencer with 8 rows, you always know the bottom pad is the root and the top is the octave. Once you start scrolling around I can imagine getting lost pretty quick. Maybe it’s a simple as showing the current range on the norns screen (or you just use your ears, I suppose).

most excellent!

Q: how does a “tie” manifest?

in midi, does it mean issuing noteon without noteoff?

(in polyperc or similar engines, it has no meaning; notes are one-shot, tuned “bangs” which always self-release, and there is no faciltity for tuning a running voice.)

Correct, it’s a bit like a piano roll, but grid style. It’s an approach applied by the Deluge, and it works quite well there - for those who are into that sort of thing, that is. So it’s not for everyone, for sure, but neither is the traditional piano roll in a daw, either.

As for root note, I’d say that in a first version, I wouldn’t implement any indication of that at all. Not because I don’t think it’ll be useful, but I’d say that you could go live with this without it, and find out how specifically a user would want to apply such a feature. I myself probably wouldn’t miss it at all, as long as I’m either applying a chromatic or tuned scale along the vertical lines.

But I can totally see this would be wanted, but perhaps release a first version first and listen to how users would want it, and then figure something out.

Hmm, tricky. A tie in this contest is a sustained note. So if I pushed a note on the first button and tied it to the fourth, it’d be the equivalent of holding it until the actual fourth step, which affects the envelope of the note, especially when it comes to sustain. In polyphonic contexts, this is particularly powerful. For example, I tend to live record my midi stuff into the Blackbox, and then play with the ties (sustains) in the piano roll window afterwards, to create interesting overlapping effects within the same patch.

A more straight forward use case would be one note to be the base - let’s say C3, to make it conceptually clean - and I’d apply no tie to that, and apply it to step 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 15. At the same time, I’d have just one note, G3, triggering on the 9th step and sustain it to the 15th. That’d be the equivalent of a prolonged lead, like a sustained voice or a lead with a slow attack that just needs some time to build up, or something.

If the synth engine doesn’t have a proper envelope with sustain, though, the feature is pointless. But I believe some of them do, like Molly the Polly and Passengers, right? And most hardware and software synths on most platforms, have sustains. So in almost all midi cases, this would be quite useful.

have you spent any time looking at kria? i designed it to be usable in very “normal” ways in addition to all of the parametric phasing.

that said, i haven’t worked on the norns version.

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thinking about implementing something like fairfield’s shallow water using softcut:

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Yep, I’m learning it right now. Could be that it’s just the ticket for me.

This would be great! I’m not sure how much I’d use it, but when looking into how it worked I immediatly thought this was something that could be coded in SC… but I’m new enough to DSP that I don’t know where to start… my mental model is something like ‘plucking’ (sinusoidal bipolar modulation with decay) the playbackspeed of a looped buffer.

This would be awesome!

I am building a more traditional sequencer for Norns + Grid. (Which is the reason I got onto this platform, build the exact sequencer I want.) 16 tracks, 64 steps per pattern, arbitrary step length per step, independent patterns per track, pattern loops, micro-timing, etc. It’s not ready for release, but I’m getting close. I haven’t focused on polyphony per track yet (not my personal main use case), but I guess it could be achieved by using multiple tracks, even if very cumbersome. I’ll put it up on the forum once I reach the MVP.

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I’ll be looking for it :slight_smile: thanks for letting me know.

Hey! Wanted to propose a more focused way to browse through the apps on Norns.

I would love to see app categories that could be created using folders, i.e Sequencers, Audio processing, Audio generation, Loopers, Utilities, Studies etc. I find it really frustrating scrolling through endless amount of abstratly named scripts, studies, engines etc in one table. At the moment if you put all sequencers in Sequencers folder, maiden will not be able to update those inside the folder because it can only read single apps. Creating a folder and nesting apps inside also doesn’t actually hide them on Norns browser screen, it just adds the name of the folder to the start of the name of the app. Also the way naming of the app works on Norns is a bit over cluttered, could it be possible to display the name of the app using the name of the .lua file? Otherwise it is something like Sequencers/sequencers/user/awake etc, would be much nicer to have a single name for an app, from user’s perspective it shouldn’t matter who made it and so on. Perhaps the folder structures are already being worked on in the context of managing samples etc, but it would be nice to have a clearer browser for apps so that we dont have to open maiden everytime to find that exact sequencer that you were looking for.

I believe this is usually the case unless there are multiple .lua files within the root directory of the script.

It’s possible for script uploaders to “tag” their scripts in the community library (though last time I checked most scripts are missing tags). Maybe a “Browse by tag” option in the menu could work?

I think I also saw a github feature request for users to be able to “favorite” scripts, so you can quickly browse to your favorites. I like this idea.

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