Thanks, this is all very interesting! The Salt looks great, and maybe that’s just my solution-- pity it doesn’t have anything resembling a screen. Actually, the Bela (the thing the Salt is based on) looks FANTASTIC. The ARM-based Teensies seem great and all, but it looks like the Bela has more ADCs/DACs?

A couple of follow up questions, sorry if these are basic–

  • “the Crow [will] be an I2C CV interface that should connect directly to Norns” Super cool. Looking at the announcement post Approaching: norns – is this a eurorack module? Or will it just hook into the Norns? It sort of looks like eurorack and they mention “2HP”. Also, again a basic question, but what kind of programming interface do you use to interact with I2C on embedded Linux? Do you just talk to the bus via a filehandle? Or should I assume that Monome will give some specific Norns-Crow interface that does the I2C talking for you?
  • A couple of people have suggested eurorack modules. I wasn’t specifically planning to put together a eurorack setup-- I was hoping to focus on desktop/easily portable devices like the Norns or the Kastle or a breadboard if it were possible. If I wind up with exactly one eurorack module, how hard is it to just have a eurorack module just sitting on a desktop? It seems like even the standalone power supplies for eurorack gear are kind of expensive ($80 range)?
  • A couple people suggested 0-5V sound cards… what does C/C++ software use to talk to a sound card if it is running on the Norns? I assume I could just use PortAudio? Is there some Linux-native thing which is higher performance?
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The Dodeca/Dubldeca is essentially an CV I/O board with a teensy under the hood :slight_smile:

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It’s a Eurorack module. It will connect to norns with some kind of cable, and I2C instructions will be carried over that cable. I2C is a very simple wire protocol.
https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/i2c

Yes, it’s difficult to get the price of case/power supply down far enough to make these single-use/non-modular use cases cost effective.

Hmm, TIL the Axoloti has DC-coupled stereo output so could in theory send two CVs… and it’s affordable… but no one seems to be stocking it right now :frowning:

hI technobear

I use CV in via the ES3 to my ES6 & 7 with ableton and CV Toolkit also

I find it very useful for looping sections of recorded CV and I also use them to record audio back into the USB streamer through ADAT.

Received my PIsound last night but haven’t got the SD card yet so need to setup a temporary card tonight

Looking forward to seeing what can be done with this setup

s

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Yep - Bela is specifically designed for this (it’s come out of a music+technology research programme); it has lots more ADCs/DACs built-in than the Teensys (which are just exposing the ones built into the MCUs), and most importantly they’re higher resolution - sixteen bits rather than twelve. What I can’t remember off the top of my head is the voltage range on them - I’d imagine it’s 0-3.3V, and possibly 0-5V, but no more. As ever: offset/scaling is possible with extra components.

I assume that Monome will give some specific Norns-Crow interface that does the I2C talking for you?

Yeah - given it’s an official solution, and the things we’ve seen about Norns’ design and assumptions I’d imagine there will be a wrapper API inside Norns that means you just write crow-specific commands - I2C is lower level than a lot of the (Lua-side) scripting in Norns exposes.

how hard is it to just have a eurorack module just sitting on a desktop? It seems like even the standalone power supplies for eurorack gear are kind of expensive ($80 range)?

It’s not impossible. There are cheaper PSUs available, that don’t spit out much current, but might be enough. The only reason people leap to Eurorack is that it’s where a lot of the digital->CV work is going on right now owing to the increasing popularity of the format. (Eg: RT just making Salt a product). I think you’re right that it’s probably not worth it for just a CV solution.

Although Bela doesn’t have a screen - it really is just a development board - it’s possible to add one. Because the Beaglebone Black it sits atop is running Linux, you’re effectively just SSHing into it to write or upload code in your format of choice - Puredata is popular, as well as Supercollider or lower-level code. I guess it depends what you want a screen for - as an interface to the finished thing, or a developer tool. The Beaglebone Black almost certainly supports SPI or I2C, making many of the popular OLED screens that firms like Adafruit can sell viable, providing you can just write an interface to them. (Norns uses an I2C screen that it addresses as a Linux screenbuffer, I believe).

Each of the off-the-shelf solutions is taking a different perspective: despite the technologies involved, Norns’ main designed focus is the higher-level end - scripting and interacting with existing engines. Bela is focusing on being a dev board or engine for other instruments, in particular things with low latency and lots of ADC/DAC requirements; PiSound is emphasising the openness/scope of the Raspberry Pi platform; Expert Sleepers are focusing on the Eurorack community; each of them is a different set of assumptions and, of course, compromises. If you’re working on a lower level solution, at some point you probably end up doing more outboard electronics: either to amplify, or scale/offset, or to add controller inputs or, say, DACs to a chip that doesn’t have enough, or enough at high enough resolution.

I’m also aware - though haven’t said it explicitly yet - that when I say “you could just whack an SPI screen on a Bela and some knobs and off you go!” I’m assuming a variety of things around electronic competency and/or enthusiasm - or desires to spend time plumbing rather than programming, or available time, and those are all actually factors that inform decisions, and the compromises we choose to make.

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The answer is different if we’re talking about Salt, the Eurorack version of Bela, or the simpler SoC board just called Bela.

Good catch - I was definitely talking about plain old Bela.

Bela board is 0-5v on analog in/out , and 0-3.3v(!) on digital i/o (and not 5v tolerant)

Salt is 5v (but CV compatible) and the knobs can be used as offsets.

I suspect most use the supplied web frontend, which is pretty good… not only allows uploading/viewing/editing of code, but also has a scope function. (of course you can use ssh if you wish too)

screen, yeah I connected a small oled, pretty simple… best done as a separate process , and then an aux task in bela dsp, to not disrupt dsp… but ended up finding i didnt use it much, so its back in the toolbox.

axoloti is 2v pp on audio output , so -1v to +1v, so possible, but not a huge range for cv.

there are also a couple of analog outputs (and quite a few inputs) you can use, are ok, if you make sure you stay
in the 0…3.3v range. (simple opamp/diode clamp works) - a few have done this so there are resources on the axoloti forum. so axo is not the simplest, but its by far the cheapest, excluding arduino, and is really flexible…
(I love axoloti as a ‘utility box’ )

as others have said, they all do the ‘simple task’ of handling cv, some with more effort than others, but also at very different costs too, all these things also do a huge amount other than just CV IO, so you might want to consider that too.

Id say the choice is really, what do you want to do… e.g. do you need a screen?, what do you want to code in? how many cv i/o?

its probably also fair to say, as these things are all very flexible, they all have a ‘time investment’ involved to understand the platform… (this is the bit I really enjoy, understanding what they can do and how )

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FWIW - norns display uses SPI with the linux screenbuffer. But - you can use any display that has a driver for fbtft - for example, I’ve got a $5 sh1106 1.3inch SPI OLED working on RasPi with norns.

Also FWIW - USB power for modular - pretty good for running just a simple module or two - esp if the mV ratings are low

Perfect for your lunchbox modular rig

https://modularaddict.com/manufacturer/mmi/mmi-usbpower-pcb
or
https://c1t1zen.com/presta/home/9-usbpower-kit.html

(I use one of these for my DIY module build testing rack)

I wish those folks would post specs to the store website so you didn’t have to go hunt and peck for them…

that MMI uses this DC/DC converter:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/DKM10E-12?qs=%2Fha2pyFaduj%2bGVVRbVEvXcyGin%2FM1U0gfAmAe4tf9K%2FLsDQL%2brCFbQ%3D%3D

416 mA

oh, that’s nice! I seem to remember the c1t1zen version provides 250mA

Have a look at the endorphins shuttle control cv module. It can be self powered and programmed to do many midi to cv duties. It supports USB host and devise. It has 16 cv outs. No ins unfortunately.
I’m hoping to use my with Norns connected directly to it. And hopefully someone can expand the kria app to 8 tracks.

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Did this ever work? Also thinking of connecting my norns shield with a shuttle controller, Expert Sleepers ES-8, or at leaset a crow.

I honestly cant remember if i ended up try out the shuttle control with my Norns. I ended up getting crow as it seemed to be the most logical choice within the Monome ecosystem. I do still have a shuttle control and es-8, so if you’d like me to test them out I could over this weekend. I may do it just so that info is out there for everyone. But crow is a fantastic addition to Norns especially if you own a Just Friends.

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tldr; not without upstream norns hacks, since it’s an audio interface

anything that speaks USB-midi is all well with norns though and already compatible with many existing scripts

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Hi y’all. Here’s my update with the results of my experiments since I made this thread (two years ago now…).

  • Stemtera— I mentioned this in my 2018 post, after the post I got one of these and I LOVE it. It’s small, it’s cheap, it doubles as a breadboard, it’s made of LEGO, pick up some trim pots (knobs) and some thonkiconns (3.5mm jacks) and you can make your own little trigger-based eurorack modules in a minute. The only downside is you can do analog in out of the box but can’t do analog out unless you can make a simple Resistor-Capacitor filter (and I failed at this when I tried). Here’s me controlling my Minibrute from the Stemtera (the Swing knob on the Minibrute means I didn’t need the RC filter for this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJCk2IcAwVE
  • Rebel Technology Magus - Someone in this thread recomended the Salt. I looked into that and it turned out the Salt was a limited-edition kinda thing you can no longer get. Apparently there are only like 30 in the world or something LOL. However! The Magus, OWL and Wizard (3 different form factors but a single common technology platform, they run the same patches, also I think both Owl and Magus come in both desktop and eurorack forms) are Rebel Technology’s NEW products and the successor to the Salt, there was a kickstarter and stuff. The Magus is basically exactly what I’d hoped for when I first posted here. Buncha CV in/outs, knobs, screen, MIDI USB host and client modes. You can upload C++ or PureData and share patches from a website (the website compiles C++!). I’ve got a video here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/517152224 of me controlling a detuned-saw drone patch I wrote and feeding it into my eurorack, and a much more horrifying :smiley: version of the same patch here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/519847988?t=00h09m14s Problems: When I last used Magus it was still kind of a construction site. There were problems with the knobs and the MIDI input, and I got the strong sense that the OWL was Rebel’s highest priority (some of the fancier features of the Magus as compared to the OWL, like use of the screen or full use of the huge row of bottom cv in/outs, were not yet fully exposed to the C++ API). It was also at the time taking them a long time to make enough units to meet demand. However once the platform has time to mature (as much as products like the Norns already have) I think it will be killer. Possibly some of the problems I encountered have already been fixed in the firmware upgrades since I last had time to play with it. Also I believe I will be able to do a LOT of weird stuff if I start installing fully custom firmware (not to go too far in the weeds but the bottom two rows of Magus CVs run at a lower sample rate than the top rows in order for reasons related to patch API compatibility with Wizard/OWL, but the hardware has the potential to run all 24 CVs at full speed), this is possible because of the open source nature of the Magus but I have not had time to explore this.

  • Dada Machines Doppler - I almost hesitate to mention this but I did play with it. This is an Arduino board almost identical to a Teensy, same form factor and about the same price, but in addition to the Arduino (Atmel) CPU it has an ICE40 FPGA onboard. I got it cuz I want to experiment with learning FPGA coding. Unfortunately I’m having problems with some of the Arduino API not being fully implemented in the current version of the software. I guess I keep buying beta stuff! :frowning: However I did make this video of it generating an oscillation signal and an envelope, the eurorack driving a eurorack filter and timing a pocket operator on a trigger channel. In this video I am not using the FPGA and am just using it like a Teensy. (The… timing doesn’t work in this video, I got that working after that but I haven’t uploaded the final video, I just thought the “incorrect” timing was an interesting effect.) This device is +/- 3.3V but that turned out to be not so much a problem, which makes me think maybe the Teensy is not useless for Eurorack after all.

  • Winterbloom Sol - This is maybe something to watch but it’s not out yet, the developer is a friend and I beta tested it, it’s basically CircuitPython on a eurorack module, it has MIDI-client input (ie, you’d connect it to a computer and drive it from Ableton or something) and some CVs and triggers as output (not sure yet how many will be in the final release). CircuitPython is seriously great, it was the nicest programming experience of any of these four, but it’s obviously a more limited device than some of the other things discussed in this thread (I believe the intent is to be a “drive eurorack from MIDI” module and the point of the CircuitPython is to allow very fine control over how the MIDI is converted into CV/trig (like, depending on which converter script you select it can be monophonic or polyphonic or you could write your own arpeggiator with custom rules, etc). I would LOVE to show you the video I made of testing this out but Twitch deleted it :frowning:

Maybe I will make tutorial youtube videos for some of these devices at some point.

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This is brand new but ive been following sonic smith for a while but this just blew me away https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/electro-smith/daisy-an-embedded-platform-for-music

So much potential

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