#44

Sure thing! It’s called Pain: the board game by Sampson Starkweather on (the always awesome) Thrid Man Books

#45

On the other side of revision is those that cannot be trusted with there own legacy for example Ridley Scott and the Blade Runner. He’s changed the meaning three times at my last count.

#46

kanye just updated his latest album, the life of pablo, after releasing it a few weeks ago. the whole experience for me has been pretty rad- he did a live stream of the album from madison square gardens, then a week or so later did a public release. even in those few days the production on the songs changed. then, this latest update with an even wider release saw some pretty drastically different production overall, with a few fixes here and there randomly leading up to this latest version.

the process of consuming the album has been quite an adventure for me. some of the songs he had released prior to any of this on his soundcloud, and one of those songs has an entire different mix on the album. so i start to get familiar with the material bit by bit, and as time goes on there is still new information feeding my perception. just as you start to get used to the album, understand the songs, and are familiar enough to say, sing along, each new version brings a deeper experience for me because now i already know all of the material in great detail and when something is different it really sticks out.

there’s the pre-release version of a few songs, the madison square gardens live bootleg, the official first release, a few random touch ups, and now the latest wider release version. i must admit, when i heard he was going to remaster the album for wide distribution, i really had no idea what that meant. lots of people complained about the mix on the official release, but then again lots of people complain about lots of things lots of times. the mastering certainly didn’t bother me.

but now, hearing the new version, i’m completely blown away! it does sound so much better! and I’m quite surprised to say that, because it sounding better… or worse… such a subjective thing that i didn’t think i had any starting basis for. again, i think it might be because i really got to know each iteration, and as a fan of the work totally got into the new details. almost a way of rediscovering the whole thing over again. and a bit of an easter egg hunt to spot the differences. what’s better than having that same feeling of hearing something for the first time, but already knowing that you really love it??

i’m also always surprised when releases like this are so flexible… to the instagram tracklist from the studio that kept changing, to the last minute additions, and different album titles… all over the course of a few weeks. i tend to think stuff like this is planned out months, if not years in advance, with every little thing calculated and considered. for such a major release to be transparent in its process… blows my mind. then again, i’d much rather have 4 weeks to make a show instead of 4 months. good ideas don’t need to take time, and most of the best ideas need less work than the troubled ones. i’m really excited to see if the album will change yet again… and how it will survive over the years without a physical format…

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#47

Man I’ve been thinking this through the whole experience as well.
Thank you very much for putting it so elegantly

#48

today i was wondering why i couldn’t imagine the album being any better or worse than the first full release… not because it was the best thing ever made, but i just assumed that was the statement the artist wanted to make and i took that at face value. so this idea of revision, that you start with this idea of giving the public some sort of “final” statement, or at least a summing up at that point in time… i guess that carries some weight with me.

and that reminded me of a show i saw last year by some friends- watching the show at first i thought it was super random, making choices i would never consider in a million years. and yet i knew they were really good artists and also that in the market where they work it generally takes almost 2 years to get a show up and running. so i’m watching the show thinking “it took 2 years to make THAT??” but as the show went on, the audience loved it. and it was quite genius in its simplicity. at the end of the show i was truly amazed, particularly because i was making a new creation during that same period and i was suffering, killing myself to make my own show work. i was thinking that i was working way too hard! because the show i saw from my friends was so beautiful and effective after all.

then i talked to them after the show and said good job… and they were completely surprised and said “oh! we just threw that together in 2 weeks!” i didn’t know it wasn’t their normal production, it was just a fun little side project. and suddenly, put in that context, the show really was lacking… to think that they spent 2 weeks and that’s all they came up with!! when just a moment before i had thought it was a genius creation of 2 years work. so strange, the perception and expectation for some art work. something about revisions making those first happy accidents suddenly not as valid?

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#49

As a friend pointed out: if you’re going to distribute music digitally, you may as well consider it as software - although wouldn’t it be nice to have a real changelog…

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#50

I think the era of album oriented rock really messed with our heads. If you go to the early days of recorded music, before anybody really had notions of what a “release” meant or even a sense of ownership over songs, you can hear many of the “standards” being sung by a raft of different folks. Every recording has a different character. The lyrics and the basic melody might be the only thing in common between each version. Audiences were far more interested in the style and talent exhibited by the performance than they were by the composition.

But then go back further into the classical era and you’ll see composition come to the fore again.

Pendulums swing, often nudged by technology and culture. It’s interesting to see this notion of “final” come in and out of focus over the decades.

Been thinking a lot about the relationship between composition and improvisation (thanks largely to some wise words from @Rodrigo and @glia). I think it’s possible that the distinction means a lot more to the producer of music than it does to the audience. I feel the audience is there for the emotion and/or the narrative you’re trying to communicate. You can get that across with structure or without, with great labor, or an inspired moment, with dedicated practice, or completely by accident. It’s funny that way.

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#51

That’s really interesting about the Kanye album, and that general idea as it being a cloud type thing. It really shatters the idea of an ‘art object’.

For me, and my general approach, I don’t think about this stuff too much in the sense that as @jasonw22 mentioned, the ‘object’ is a relatively recent and artificial constraint. I don’t think that’s meaningful in and of itself because “it’s how it used to be done” but more in the sense that that approach to music is largely an economic model being applied onto art (in terms of time-based art, like music). The thing to sell.

The way I like to think about it is that no matter what the process is that leads up to the moment (either improv or composition, or album or remix) we still experience it in realtime (for the time being anyways!), and in realtime, the past doesn’t matter. It is all a sequence of nows that we are enveloped in, each more now-er than the last.

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#52

[quote=“Rodrigo, post:51, topic:1980”]
that approach to music is largely an economic model being applied onto art
[/quote]which is why if i want free reign to revise without dealing with possible complaints i make sure not to charge

which is silly because people generally pay more more for a concert ticket than an album but exert more psychological control over album release and reissue procedures

i don’t know why i allow that pressure to affect me (especially when I don’t make profit)

once money will be exchanged for the work something changes

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#53

Making money from my music seems like such a remote possibility that I long ago began to regard it as an impossibility. For me, it is freeing. I just don’t give financial concerns any thought whatsoever in the context of music.

But I get to say that because I have a non-music career that allows me to fund my habit.

I’ve always admired artists that have found a way to avoid having this dual life, to completely focus on their art as their livelihood, especially if they seem to have found a way to avoid the distorting lens of capitalism as an influence on their process. I admire them greatly, but I’m completely baffled as well. I admit that I have a tendency to make up cynical stories about hidden trust funds just to make myself feel better about my own inadequacies.

I wish frank discussion of the economic realities of art-making as livelihood were more common.

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#54

I hate to pick on Kaitlyn because she was kind enough to invite all of us complete strangers into her home studio, but was I the only one mentally totting up the financial damage that building a studio like this represents?

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#55

nope

she uses it all (unlike many who merely horde/collect)

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#56

To amazing effect! Absolutely lovely music. I wouldn’t want to deny her a shred of it.

But (and perhaps this is the epigenetics from my uber-accountant grandfather talking) I find myself baffled at the finances involved. I am not owed any explanation, of course.

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#57

no i totally get it

just didnt occur to me while watching this video

happens plenty of other times (especially on here…monome gear aint cheap!)

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#58

(apologies for the topic wandering)

i think when someone takes on music as a career the math changes. honestly in comparison to other careers, the investment is comparatively inexpensive.

out where we live people regularly spend staggering amounts on tractors and trucks and heavy tools, for careers that certainly don’t have mega dollar promise.

more the issue is that so many of us get the gear but the gear doesn’t “earn” its keep. which comes back to the broken economics of the industry.

so i try to reserve judgement when seeing a giant collection of gear. it could mean many different things.

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#59

Yeah, when I think about what we’ve spent on a well, irrigation, and a tractor, it makes my concerns about musical expenditures seem quaint.

#60

I like this idea
closely linked to file storage and the associated choices in nomenclature that we make

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#61

re kanye and versions etc:

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#62

Didier Super is funny, he’s a caracter, and a great one :smiley:

#63

so i’ve read that kanye west had promised to release the life of pablo on tidal only. someone felt betrayed and sue him, because he revised his work and then release the life of pablo on other platforms.

revision and betrayal.

it leads me to Penelope and Melantho (yes Homer’s Odissey). Penelope promised to marry one of the suitors after she finished a shroud for her step-father. so she weaved at day and revised her work at night. a trick to delay her pledge. but Melantho (who is the beloved maid of Penelope) betrayed Penelope by telling the trick to the suitors. work is done, she needs to marry one of the suitors.

this ancient story (all kind of ancient story) is a way to describe inner life. the characters and their relationship is a way to describe the structure of the inner life, how it is shaped and how it evolves. (today we would prefer to talk about molecules, hormones, map of the brain, metabolisms, process, electricity, etc.).
anyway, this story could be an answer (among many others) to the question [quote=“tehn, post:1, topic:1980”]
who decides when something is done?
[/quote]

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