#80

“Modular synths are for old rich white guys.”

-Sorry for my harsh sarcasm-

Generally speaking I love the complexity and the quality of sound you could achieve with those instruments, but at the same time I dislike how they’re sort of wasted and the consumerist attitude in the modular crew.

I honestly think that the “quality/price ratio” of great part of the music made from $$$$$ walls of modules it’s not that great
(generally speaking ‘bout what’s floating in the internet)

I also think that if you manage to properly learn to play let’s say a piano or a guitar you don’t need a $$$$$ instrument in order to achieve great results.

In facts a great player it’s great too on a few bucks instrument.

Can we make that same statement on modular synths?

#81

I guess it sounded like that, but that wasn’t really my intent. What I wanted to say is that any instrument takes up a part of our life and it’s a good and important thing that it does so. Playing an instrument is a matter of commitment and passion. It can become an obsession, but that is another topic I guess.
So I guess if there’s no commitment and passion, you’re just spending money and indeed any instrument is very expensive then.

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#82

I think we can and @disquiet already offered a great example with the “three-module challenges”.

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#83

Would be interesting to hear 3 module tracks from lines :innocent:

Maybe after :santa::christmas_tree::gift:

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#84

Your points about the disposable income crew are true, but the old rich white guy market has long been there; all those Les Paul Customs and PRSs aren’t just going to gigging musicians, they’re going to middle aged dudes to stumble through Cream covers on…

And you know, in some ways, there’s nothing wrong with that. They’re making music on nice instruments. Perhaps the more salient point is that the “cheap” ways in are limited - a 6U doepfer system is 1300, for instance. But again, go to synth land: a poly analog starts at 500 and mainly sits around 1500 for interesting new ones; the 0-coast (still my favourite gateway synth by miles) is at that point. It’s not Squier cheap, but it’s not bad.

I’m on a phone so coherent typing is hard, but I think the most frustrating point is the way certain kinds of modular conversation have been overwhelmed by the “rich dudes making ropey techno” scenario; and, in particular, the way newcomers are beginning to learn behaviours from that environment; the idea that they need to keep purchasing, or that they need a plan, or that the collection game is more interesting than the music game. Sometimes I worry I’m guilty of that, but I do my best. (My best music, after all, is still not made on my modular)

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#85

I think you can get into very contentious, and overly subjective, territory when you start down the road of whether the quality of the music made is worthy of the price of the instrument(s) it was made on.

Plenty of people make music I like on instruments worth a lot of money, plenty make it on ones that are cheap.

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#86

Obligatory reference to Leica cameras etc, although I think modular goes nowhere near that kind of price/performance ratio. But diminishing returns are worth mentioning too, curiously it took me playing Eve Online for a while to get a good feel for how that works.

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#87

Is it worth it to have certain gear? Yes. If it matters to you in a way that changes musical expression then regardless of it mattering in a physical sense it matters in the moment.

Are old white guys with $$ a problem? I’m a mediocre guitarist, an older guy, white, and I can afford more than I need. I went to get a semi-hollow guitar a couple of years ago. The sales guy abandoned some kid who was clearly better than me. I asked him why. ‘Guys like you buy, keep the store profitable, and I’m on commission.’

Are old white guys with $$ a problem 2? I strongly suspect that if Eurorack modules could only be sold to people for whom music is a profession (even in part) most of the market would evaporate and many of our favorite vendors would be toast.

Do old white guys buy up the vintage gear and lock it up in their dens? Yes. No defense here.

I’m sure Arturus Povertus writing on the Roman wall-forum LLLLLLoL complained bitterly about Horditus Maximus and his friends Vintigus Collectus and Neverus Playsus.

Do I feel guilty that I have a Tetrapad waiting for me at the post office today? Not at all. Come over and I’ll serve you scotch while you try it out! Old white guys hoard scotch too :smile:

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#88

hilarious but very true

#89

pointing at old white men is outdated. modular is millennial tech bro fashion.

and neither are a problem. as a few of you said, any purchase keeps this niche market alive. most modular makers are barely alive at all times (sometimes us included).

but i get it. the problem (and the facilitator) is capitalism. people are people.

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#90

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#91

Rambly perhaps incoherent response:

I think a lot about the inherently discriminatory nature of modular due to pricing a lot. I also think about how some of my favorite electronic music is generally not being made in Eurorack (e.g. my friend Robert Beatty/Three Legged Race is a damn inspiration and his setup is so kooky and comparatively lo-fi that it’s absurd) and I feel even more conflicted as to why I got into it in the first place ha.

I think that’s why I’ve always felt yucky/guilty about having too much. I don’t need a giant studio with every possible tool, I want a relatively cohesive and small arsenal of tools that I can explore as if it were an instrument. Someone above pointed out the concept of modularity is not restricted to Eurorack or even synthesizers. That very much resonates with me, but I also really value limitations on some level (which is admittedly super subjective).

With Eurorack/synthesizers, it definitely starts to feel like rich people spending inordinate amounts of money on their old expensive baseball cards. I contrast that with a group of little kids excitedly opening one pack to see what’s inside. How could I ever have thought as an 8 year old in the 80s I could compete with old people buying their Mickey Mantle cards? Anyway, are most of these generally wealthy Eurorack users making anything with their toys? How much of it is compelling to me (subjective)? How much is it about the end product? How much of it is about the process? Does any of this matter? To Random’s point, they’re probably an important part of ‘the market’ that allows this stuff to be even remotely sustainable. Let them keep it afloat while the artists do their thing. Meanwhile, others are primarily in it for the image, or for something to post daily on their Instagram page, and hey, if that’s what they get out of it, fair enough. It takes all kinds…

Personally, given the challenge of finding my voice on the modular, I wonder what the heck I’m doing, but then ‘the journey’ has been fun and rewarding despite the periodic artistic frustration. I think back to being 18 working with an MC505/guitar/voice in the late 90s and opening for Isotope217, the Shipping News, Smog, or whatever act where I had realized a dream and I was producing more with less. Should I go back to ‘just’ an Octatrack+OP1 and really dig in? But then, as others have pointed out, very little of this ends up being about the tools, it’s about the artist. I ultimately try to go back to the basics:

Use what you want and can afford and squeeze everything out of the tools that you need to to be the artist that you want to be.

It isn’t just about the end result though. The exploration and journey is something I really value more and more, as the ‘product’ in the end becomes increasingly meaningless in our reality where people are pumping out ‘product’ endlessly on Youtube, Instagram, Bandcamp, tapes, CDs, records…me me me, consume consume consume…I’ve been at the point now where I’ve decided, ‘if everyone is an artist, then is anyone an artist?’ Knowing how to manage the endlessness of the art in the world is getting insane. Democratization of art is good, but I’m drowning!!!

Anyway, I really appreciate this discussion and figured I’d chime in on a sleepy Christmas Eve. Thank you for being such a thoughtful and open community.

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#92

Couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I am reading this thread.

  1. Money spend on anything used to make art (in any form, so sound included) is always money well spent. I don’t care who is spending it, and how much of it they spend. Ultimately I see it as investment in the better side of our humanity.

  2. The concept of “wealth” or “being rich” has evolved in recent decades, and for it to retain any meaning, it needs to be framed in context. Mainly, I just want to say, that in the context of the “first world” (I shudder) none of us are rich. My suspicion is, that none of the modular manufacturers, nor buyers/users are rich.

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#93

Certainly the concept of rich is subjective. Just to share my perspective: I am a school teacher who is probably just a touch into the top 50% of income in America. I feel simultaneously incredibly lucky and incredibly ashamed about that. Knowing that I struggle and I’m better off financially than the vast majority of humans and even doing better off financially than about half of America is kind of fucked up. Knowing that I live in a country that lacks the empathy to consider and work to remedy that is kind of fucked up. But if I can vaguely afford a 6U modular synth and some other luxuries while others are struggling to feed their children, then yes, I feel it isn’t unreasonable to describe me as rich. Am I in that 1 or 2% of richest Americans that are routinely vilified? No. Am I even in that segment of Muffwiggler gear fetishists that fill their rooms with synths? No. To your point though, rich is subjective, so I would contend that if we’re able to discuss this kind of topic on an art+music forum at our leisure, then at least some of us are rich.

EDIT: Might be interesting for those of you who haven’t messed with this kind of thing: http://www.globalrichlist.com/

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#94

I’ve worked for charities all my life and earn less than the average annual wage here in Ireland.
Yet, running my wage through that link makes me feel extremely rich, lucky and guilty all in one.

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#95

It is a unique and bizarre melange of emotions that run through me too :slight_smile: I try to dwell on gratitude and an understanding that others aren’t as lucky though…my problems are trivial in comparison to most.

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#96

Yeah, I would, too. The three-module format is a great way, I’ve found, to learn what things are capable of. Maybe we can get a thread going for it.

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3 module tracks
#97

The 42/54 HP thread definitely had me pondering that more and more for the first time. Get it started. Should it also have an HP limit?

#98

“…to learn what things are capable of…”

A great definition of philosophy, or perhaps the human condition.

*hijack over :slight_smile:

#99

If “you” want something badly enough, you will find a way to get it.

Evolutionary biology, always at play.