#21

I’d agree with all of the comments above about building your system slowly, buying used and considering DIY. I’ve done all three and built a really lovely 6u setup over the last few years without breaking the bank.

I’d also caution against getting overly invested in the biggest, flashiest and most expensive modules: some of the biggest leaps I’ve made with my system have involved adding cheaper and less impressive modules which suddenly open up new ways of working. For example, I’d been struggling to do fun stuff with sequencing until I added a passive OR module to combine different clock signals, and suddenly everything clicked. Doepfer in particular can be a source of really cheap but hugely creative and under-rated modules, and a way to do cool stuff without spending a ton.

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#22

You are right about seemingly simple modules. Things like OR combiners, other logic stuff and precision adders have been really useful and pleasant surprises for me. That’s what I find interesting in a modular.

Not that I would mind an Erbe-Verb or SMR but they don’t keep me awake at night like thinking about a window comparator.

#23

Without having too much meaningful info to chime in with, I do want to say that I have a couple of friends who only DIY stuff. So either things they have bought as kits, or bits they’ve assembled themselves. This obviously brings costs waaay down.

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#24

I think plenty of people have covered that fact that modular can be affordable if you don’t have to have that latest new module and buy (second-hand) sensibly. Doepfer is a great start and you could quite easily put together a 6Ux84hp system over time for maybe €1100-1200 which is probably less than some people would spend on coffee in a year.

Is Max/PD etc an alternative? Yes, in that you can certainly build modular type systems using these.

But, there’s quite a difference in one way which is Max isn’t really something you just pick up a bunch of cables and patch until you find something you like. It needs planning and forethought to get the most out of. A hardware modular has that immediacy and “what happens if I plug this in here” moments that Max doesn’t really have although I suppose Beap might come nearest (never used Beap so I don’t really know though).

You’d need to set that up in Max - building a modular system and then a way of controlling this. A hardware controller wouldn’t absolutely be a necessary buy but probably useful.

Also consider a hybrid system with computer and small modular. Max can provide the functions that are not present in the hardware modular section. If you have a suitable computer already then that might be more affordable.

And yes, Max can work well with software as well as hardware. This is a good example (for my taste anyway) of Max controlling softsynths.

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#25

I’ve resolved to build when I can and am equipping to do this. Just got given a huge pile of parts (from basics like caps and resistors to >500 ic’s in trays) so I’m also looking to from-scratch more stuff. This will keep $ under control but also just put me more in driver seat rather than ‘oh look shiny things’ which I have to admit is a weakness I’ve displayed… rather… often…

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#26

I started Euro with DIY module kits from Hexinverter, Thonk, and 4ms. They were considerably more expensive than DIY pedal kits that I was used to. This always kind of boggled my mind as the panel is little more than a sheet of aluminum - the other components are the same. In guitar pedals, the enclosure and the switch were the two priciest components outside of the PCB.

I think its the tolerances necessary for Euro but I’m sure one of the makers here could elaborate.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t have to be expensive. You can get a full Doepfer system for the price of a mid-grade electric guitar and amp. And Doepfer isn’t entry level, in my book. If this isn’t cheap enough, there are numerous inexpensive kits out there. Erica Synths used to (still does?) sell a complete Polivoks kit for less than the price of a Morphagene.

Realistically, most of the systems I see posted here use some of the most expensive modules available and remind me of the dream rigs I would see on guitar forums that I could never afford. We have the luxury of spacing out a lot of mid-tier purchases in modules which makes all this seem overwhelming whereas a guitar player might spend $2000 on a professional grade instrument, another $1500-2000 on an amplifer, and who knows how much on effects. A Prophet 6 was $2600 when they came out. One of those with a Moog Voyager would set you back more than a Shared System.

#27

I don’t want to turn this into an ER-301 thread but this module could easily replace about half of a rack of gear and its not even fully developed. I’m always thinking of new uses for it. Sure, its expensive but consider that with a little bit of patience and a learning curve, you could probably manage to consolidate a lot in any system - especially for your stated goal. Its a computer and audio interface combined with all the necessary jacks and controls right in your face. In that sense, its kind of a bargain.

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#28

I look at the ER-301 and I think that if I had some integration and interface modules, a teletype, an ER-301, and a few knobby things for fun I’d be ‘done.’

While I recognize this means you can do a lunchpail that is the equivalent to a wall of modules, I think it raises a real issue. One that is much broader than just the ER-301.

If I have a module it can (rarely) just do one thing - like an output module - but in most cases it can live in an ecosystem where each module is a verb or noun or adjective or adverb in something you are building that is a musical statement or series of statements. It is multipurpose because that is the nature of signals in synthesis - most of the point is that we can use and abuse signals in all kinds of ways.

If I have a module like a Disting it is polymorphic in that it can take on a particular personality and then be that multipurpose thing in the larger ecosystem. But in any one instant it is one thing in particular.

If I have a module like Teletype I’m opening to door to reactive expression and a wide range of new modes, yes, that’s the point right? But still, with code limits and operator limits, and even with TX’s added, the device is still a piece of the larger musical environment. Just a more powerful one.

{Nerdy me wants to digress on theory of computation and music here, but shutting up about that}

The ER-301 or any other device that is internally configurable to have multiple steps and modes to some degree breaks the Eurorack interface contract, wherein there is some chain (perhaps obscenely complex) of operations that is visible in the wires if you know how and where to work. Not deterministically (random stuff happens, pattern generators exist, samples exist, …) but at least somewhat visibly.

The rack is an outward expression of the musical experience.

As we move towards computer-in-a-module we increasingly break this. It starts to matter less that it is Eurorack. It could just as easily be a 301 doing all the stuff. Or a laptop.

Not sure that’s an aesthetic I am after.

I realize the flip side of this is that the other extreme is a ton of modules, a complex (but ultimately exposed) statement, and… a ton of money.

Full disclosure, I am interested in 301 (and may eventually get one) and I’m very interested in some way to take things built in MaxMSP and make them incarnate in a module, but not as general purpose multimode devices, but more like the Disting. I realize that I could just write alternative firmware.

Sorry, wall of text just happened. Just some thoughts on what this feels like to me.

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#29

My first car cost me $300. At some point I bought a new Kia for $6000 while today I drive a Prius that was close to $30,000. I recently test drove a Tesla P90D that cost $140,000 and while I would like to own it, I self impose limits on my current outflow of income so I can have more meaningful things. This is life.

When we want something greater in life we make the commensurate investment in ourselves and hope to adjust our incomes. If you are making adequate money is your rent costing you 10% or 35% of your pay? You have choices to upgrade your lot in life and learn a skill that pays you a wage that allows you to afford what you define as luxuries or cut expenses so you can better afford those other luxuries that have more meaning to you.

A manufacturer of Eurorack modules who makes a unit that sells for $500 might only sell 100 to 200 units of this model per year. After taking years to learn about electrical engineering and then months to create the layout, prototype, testing, manuals, promotion and marketing materials the creator might see between $50,000 and $100,000 gross income. I know some people will say that’s good money. That’s gross revenue now remove all of the costs in getting to this point and this person will be lucky to recognize $10,000 to $25,000 of income for the better part of a year that he/she still has to pay taxes on and maybe try to pay someone to help with the efforts of the next unit.

Just because we may feel that we have mad skills that given the opportunity to demonstrate them would slay the masses and instant enlightenment would befall humanity, we are not entitled to discounted or cheap luxury items because we feel that we’d be empowered and in turn would empower humanity: this is a sign of an over inflated ego.

My wife and I earn a wage that allows our rent, car payment, insurance, phone, electricity, and other fixed bills to remain below 30% of take home pay. We are not doctors, lawyers, engineers, she’s a high school grad (from Germany though!) while I’m an American high school dropout. And although I have a monster synth layout (literally the ADDAC Monster) I’m digging VCV Rack on my notebook when I’m in coffeeshops and it’s FREE!

When people have the ambition to do great things and stop lamenting the unfairness in the world (speaking to people in the rich first world) the possibilities are limitless, but first we have to get over being a victim and whining about situations instead of fixing them and fixing ourselves.

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#30

Be careful there. Fighting for fairness and doing great things are not mutually exclusive.

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#31

Interestingly enough, (for context) that right there is a cost of a nice modular system.

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#32

To respond to your question about Max/PD etc I would HIGHLY reccomend Automatonism (https://www.automatonism.com/) which is a PD modular system. It’s very intuitive, has great docs, and has all the modules you’ll need. I think it’s more user friendly and more “modular” than BEAP in Max.

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#33
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#34

Seriously valid!!!

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#35

When I first stared down into the bottomless rabbit hole of modular synthesis some small voice of reason inside of me whispered “genius grows from constraints” or maybe it was “the wife is going to kill you” or perhaps “what’s for lunch” but whatever it said I got a good-sized 3U case (126HP) and committed myself to never growing outside of its confines. So I buy, I sell, I experiment, but my instrument remains the same “size”. It’s one way and perhaps not even the best way but it’s my way to limit my investment while forcing me to be creative within the constraints of a “smaller” instrument. Whew, sorry for the run-on sentences there.

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#36

I get it, but does it matter? If I could have an entire guitar pedalboard contained in eurorack format, that would be far more portable and useful than a loaded up 50lb Pedaltrain. You could argue that a collection of guitar pedal modules with a single in and out with 3-4 knobs a piece equally “breaks” the interface contract. At the end of the day, its how you individually interact with it that matters. I will probably never replace my analog oscillators and filters with an ER-301 but there are a lot of other utilities that I just don’t need.

Spoiler alert: I haven’t gotten rid of jack. Yet. But I know it will happen.

This might be a discussion for another thread…

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#37

Lots of good responses and ideas here, I’ll share mine:

I recently realized the generally consumerist attitude of many eurorack users/musicians/collectors turns me off a little bit (ie someone asks “module x or module y?” and provides their background/music taste/goals, but a majority of the responses are “get both”…because that’s not always an option).

I look back fondly on when i was first exploring modular, in my DIY 6U/84HP case, and now really enjoy the focused, musical constraints of the system i have going (basically 120hp/4U skiff). But in arriving where I am now, I “peaked” at 12U/104HP, and I realized somewhere along the way I lost coherency and focus in my purchases, and sort of began to buy modules for the sake of filling the case. Plus, it honestly made me a little disgusted/ashamed of myself. I’ve now nearly sold off all of that, barring what I kept for my current system.

Perhaps you and I might share a similar attitude: we would be more interested in a system that exists as an instrument of sorts, rather than simply a wall of all these beep boop machines. With all the options available these days, it’s easier than ever to create small systems that feel “complete.” Plus, I feel that the biggest advantage of smaller systems is that it’s easier to integrate with software, pedals, and other instruments.

On the other hand, I’m an avid Max/PD user too, sometimes separate from hardware modular and sometimes together. These programs have their similarities and differences to hardware modular as others have already mentioned, but like anything, it’s about intent, and you’ll get out what you put into it.

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#38

Thanks for the recommendation - I’ve been playing with this all afternoon, and it’s so much fun!

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#39

i think of modular as a mindset more than a format. composing with little building blocks that can be recombined however one sees fit. these could be eurorack modules, fx pedals, pd units, reaktor blocks, vcv, max4live midi mappings, blah blah blah. it’s endless. the mindset is the exciting and inspiring part for me. and it’s free :slight_smile:

imo multi-track overdubbing is essential if you are trying to keep costs down. you can get SO far with very little hardware.

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#40

Hah, I am the opposite: I do everything live to stereo and don’t edit except to remove the occasional heads and tails and maybe normalize before uploading somewhere.

My modular has never been larger than 3 rows X 96hp of Euro, and it’s currently 2 rows X 104hp plus two rows of Intellijel format tiles.

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