I love what @shellfritsch said about modular being an approach. It sort of explains what excited me about modular in the first place. Not to drift too off topic, but the idea of cybernetics kind of relates, in that modular becomes about these little bits and pieces communicating via voltages and a human (or humans) reacting/piloting (also Teletype can ‘react/pilot’ too). This magic can happen with any number of devices as long as they can talk to each other somehow.

@papernoise touches on the dark side of modular…it’s endless and can be time consuming. It does become an obsession for most of us.

@andrew - If that doesn’t scare you off :open_mouth: , I would suggest you get a small skiff and experiment. As others have said, maybe a hybrid approach is best for you to get your feet wet, using an expert sleepers module to interface your computer with some modules that seem interesting. This way you won’t feel the need to keep buying. I think the tendency a lot of people have is to move away from the computer/laptop approach entirely, but it doesn’t need to be done that way. Also, I’m genuinely intrigued about your interests and which modules have you considering modular in the first place.

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I’m really enjoying this thread. I wanted to mention that the “three-module challenge” has been an inspiration to me, in terms of how much one can get out of a small number of modules. Now, of course, you can get a lot more out of a ER-301 than you can out of the Doepfer A-140, but still I learn a lot seeing how small setups can achieve rich, nuanced, and complex material.

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Ha! I’m actually not considering hardware modular, at least for the moment. I just wanted to trigger a conversation because I was curious if people were interested in cheaper modular alternatives.

I’m really interested in software modular, and working on creating a system within that (alot like the Automatonism mentioned earlier). The expert sleepers does seem cool though and may be something I end up dipping into after I figure out software on its own. I just have a primary interest in DSP and I enjoy messing around with code, so a software-first system seems to make the most sense to me.

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Well, this leads into one of the things I was going to say, about the relatively ‘boutique’ nature of modular/Euro (and I can only speak for the Euro end of things):

a lot of the objects in modularland are made in really short runs. Like, batches of 50 or 100 and a time. Few manufacturers can do more (I think MI’s runs are around 250 a pop, usually, and I believe their pricing is based around the first run being “break even” - that’s when the open-source release happens).

And at those runs, pricing changes a lot. Not components, really, we’re already into cheap territory there - but manufacture prices and times.

So, for instance, panels: silkscreened panels are also still the most expensive bit of many Euro kits you know. And, unlike a off-the-shelf Hammond enclosure, they’re almost always custom: custom cut to size, custom silkscreen.

Euro is expensive, it’s true, and one of the reasons why is many of the makers are very small. You’re supporting small one-to-two person shops who are designing, cranking out prototypes, co-ordinating BOMs, board assembly, and mechanical construction, shipping, retail, whatever. It’s not very efficient or practical, and we could probably make things cheaper if we were making them by the thousand. But that’s not just what the market will bear, despite the baying posters on forums who are grumpy about small retailers being out of stock. Many of us like buying products and designers from manufacturers we’ve spoken to or know personally; it is not efficient but we’re not buying consumer electronics (despite what the modular buyers who snap them up like they were Pokemon would suggest) - we’re building instruments. (Weirdly, I’m now happier buying expensive objects from small manufacturers in many fields - craft, clothing, electronics - but also less happy about expensive projects from large manufacturers - eg overpriced headphones; modular, and making my own hardware, has changed how I perceive the value and costs of manufacturing).

And now consider that a ‘moderate’ studio-grade guitar from a manufacturer making a lot of them - say, a Les Paul Standard, or American Standard Strat - is low-four figures new - and it seems reasonable. Or, for instance, my big red electric piano from a popular Scandinavian manufacturer. It feels expensive, but it’s the piano I plan to keep for as long as I possibly can. Plug-in mentality strikes again: is Massive the thing you’ll use for that sound this month, or the thing you’ll play for the rest of your life? Is the latter impossible given the short shelf-life of software?

So I think that’s another flipside: modular is expensive compared to a few tools in software, and a lot of electronic musicians are coming from well-stocked plugin cabinets where a new idea or tool can start at $40. All of a sudden, they’re back in the land of needing to buy patch cables. Except that’s where I was as a teenager - at nineteen, using a knackered old mixer and a hardware sequencer. Like “$200-$800USD every time I needed to add something to my sound engine” - I’ve been there. £450 for a sampler, which changed the palette I had available to me, and which is now obsolete. That’s just what even the smallest project studio was like. Electronic music has, thanks to powerful processors, become available on the most entry level computer. This is great. It helps that the captive audience is colossal. But it doesn’t mean that all electronic instruments need to behave that way, and this has always been the case, really; it’s just it’s now more visible given the scale of people coming from an educational copy of Max or hooky copy of FL Studio into this world.

I’m wary of hardware as fetish - I listened to two people at a gig describe a good drone artist’s table of gear as ‘more authentic’, and I wondered what was so authentic about all those cheap op-amps; if authenticity could be bought just by spending money on Boss pedals rather than doing it all in pd; it made me a bit sad. (And yet, seeing Sarah Davachi play a gorgeous set with an Odyssey, a loop pedal and an Eventide H9 was just beautiful).

But the flip side is: embodied interaction is real. We think with our bodies and our physical worlds, not just our heads. We come to new ideas through new tools. Being able to run the same algorithms or make the same sounds in two different physical systems and processes is not equivalent; modular is a process and interface as well as little boxes.

Sometimes, “buy both” is the right answer to somebody hoping one module will change everything, when in fact, it’s the modular interconnectedness they should invest in; sometimes, ‘buy both’ is lazy consumerism speaking.

Modular is expensive, and in a weird bubble, but it’s also cheaper and more accessible than it ever was previously. It’s a funny space, and I’m glad we’re talking about privilege and assumptions around it. I’m tired of the ‘icky collector’ mentality @TomWhitwell mentions (which is real, and depressing, and not representative of so many musicians in the space). I’m interested in smaller, coherent instruments, and I love the emphasis on that around these parts. And DIY - and design - has been great; there’s a joy to making music with something I built myself.

(ramble over)

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This * 1000. You can get the same sounds a lot of different ways, but how you play them will change how you use them and how you ultimately shape your music.

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Exactly, exactly and exactly.

This is why I find the interface aspects of modules so interesting and compelling. And was kinda the point my ramble was orbiting - that the degree of abstraction in a module has an effect on interaction and immediacy.

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There is a phrase for it, it’s called extended cognition. It is how your body image expands to include the car while driving.

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This is a great perspective that I simply don’t have. I bought my first synth plugin very recently (the Aalto sale :slight_smile: ). I’m a hardware guy. This is both for guitar (my other instrument) and synths in general so that is my interface preference. So paying a premium for that interface never bothered me and I own more booteek pedals (ahem… Spaceman…) than I care to admit.

One interesting note, I own some “Secret Mission” Spaceman pedals - for anyone that’s not familiar with these, they are a very short run, usually 25, of new designs he releases before they are formally released. You don’t know what you are getting, when you are getting it, or how to use it once you get it. Literally, the box has jacks and knobs and a switch but no labels. You don’t see a picture of it before purchasing so there’s always some hesitation - you only see the price. I love them. I rotate a few of these on my board from time to time but its always fun figuring out what the knobs do all over again.

MP3244 will modulate your DAW devices, MIDI CC & SYSEX, and CV through a DC-couple audio interface (including expert sleepers modules). Seems like a nice way to bridge hardware and software worlds. $49
http://dialogaudio.com/modulationprocessor/

I wish.

No one thinks all guitars sound the same, do they?

Are you talking about musicians or listeners ?

For musicians, it depends, Many will prefer one to another. That’s related to process at least as much as result, I think.

For listeners ? I’d be surprised if even other guitarists really hear the differences in finished tracks (beyond maybe “big” differences like two humbuckers vs one single coil, and even that is not always obvious).

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I strenuously disagree with both the theory and the sentiment behind it. I once had the vice president of a jukebox company (Rowe International) make this argument to me when I was director of R&D for an internet startup that was building the first network-connected jukebox. He thought my approach to the design of the audio system was too hi-fi and that no one would care about the difference. My opinion then was that it was contemptuous of one’s audience to say something like that, and secondly that my long experience in consumer audio told me otherwise. My opinion today is even stronger: people are more discerning than the “experts” give them credit for.

People do hear the differences whether they can identify it or not. I once had a total stranger tell me that he heard a sound coming out of a club half a block away that totally arrested him–he had to come find out what it was because it sounded totally different … and what he heard was me, playing live on a modular synth. There is a difference, and people can tell.

I’m not making a value judgement: there are many, many ways to make great music. But the audience is listening and responding to the same subtle things we musicians, producers, and DJs are–and they can hear the difference.

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I think there are two different arguments here. The average audience anywhere most likely couldn’t identify one instrument over another and I agree with the previous statement that many guitarists would be lucky to pick out individual equipment on a rock recording without prior knowledge of the artist. That being said, an audience knows when something sounds “good” and “bad”. I heard Alessandro Cortini perform last year with an iPad and a pedalboard - no proper synths in sight. It sounded very good. The fidelity of the performance is one thing and the fluency of the artist with the instrument is another. Both are important but maybe not equally. Both of these components are relevant to the discussion, IMO.

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This isn’t really the spirit of what I was saying… I mean that the instrument is more than the sound it makes. If you’re just after a sound then there might be many ways of achieving it, but playing something is more than that.

In context I understood you to be saying that the sound of, say, a modular synth could be achieved with software. It is my experience that this remains theoretical: the actual source of the sound matters. A sawtooth is not a sawtooth, and a resonant filter is not a resonant filter (or mathematical model) like any other.

I recall the days (1980s) when the electric guitar was said to be fading away in popular music because synthesizers were going to be able to sound just like them but with better control, wider range, etc.–that was the promise of sampling and advanced computer modeling. Now, 30 years later … unless “fake guitar” is the sound you’re after, the only practical (and easiest) way of achieving a “real guitar” sound remains a real guitar.

It’s true that talent plus a kazoo can make art, but the discussion at hand is about why we pay so much for obsolete hardware when a $20 app can do so much more. I don’t think it’s all fetishism. In my own case, I tried and tried for years to make music I liked with all manner of electronic and software instruments but got nowhere until I built a modular. I would love to rock an iPad, but I simply can’t get sounds or an interface that inspires me. I probably lack talent.

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I’m not trying to imply that they will sound the same, only that you can make music with anything… and ultimately if you have a vision for a sound you can probably realize that vision with a variety of tools in different ways. But it won’t be exactly the same, and the process of creating it and playing it will be drastically different. IMO, the difference in interface and ergonomics has a large impact on my ability to realize the music I want to make, sometimes more than the exact sound/tone of the instrument.

They work in tandem though… I get sounds from my modular that I would never get from PD if only because I do things I would never think to do in PD (or can’t, like analog distortion). And vice versa.

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I can’t, or rather–I wouldn’t want to.

This all depends on where you’re approaching music-making from. Composers & producers come at it from one direction and can be less concerned with the exact instrumentation behind the music than, say, a jazz musician who makes up the music on the spot. I, for instance, don’t have a “vision”: I react to the sounds I’m making in the moment and I don’t have more than a very vague plan behind what I want to do. I can’t repeat a performance, either. This means that the sound itself takes on a crucial importance: I make decisions based on the exact sounds I’m getting, never to be repeated. Piano is the same way for me: I respond differently to various instruments and probably could not make the same music on different pianos because sound and musical judgement are so intertwined for me. I don’t think I’m alone in this.

PD is utterly useless to me–actually, it’s worse than useless because I find myself uninspired after trying to use it for a musical purpose. YMMV :slight_smile:

It’s good we aren’t forced to choose.

“Modular synths are for old rich white guys.”

-Sorry for my harsh sarcasm-

Generally speaking I love the complexity and the quality of sound you could achieve with those instruments, but at the same time I dislike how they’re sort of wasted and the consumerist attitude in the modular crew.

I honestly think that the “quality/price ratio” of great part of the music made from $$$$$ walls of modules it’s not that great
(generally speaking ‘bout what’s floating in the internet)

I also think that if you manage to properly learn to play let’s say a piano or a guitar you don’t need a $$$$$ instrument in order to achieve great results.

In facts a great player it’s great too on a few bucks instrument.

Can we make that same statement on modular synths?

I guess it sounded like that, but that wasn’t really my intent. What I wanted to say is that any instrument takes up a part of our life and it’s a good and important thing that it does so. Playing an instrument is a matter of commitment and passion. It can become an obsession, but that is another topic I guess.
So I guess if there’s no commitment and passion, you’re just spending money and indeed any instrument is very expensive then.

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I think we can and @disquiet already offered a great example with the “three-module challenges”.

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