Sorry if this derails the thread further, and I don’t mean this as a rude question, but what is the actual point of the analog vs digital debate? As in I don’t actually get what the stakes are. Even just raising some of these issues seems, to me, to give more credit to the machines than is due. Don’t get me wrong, I GAS too… but what are you gonna do with your perfect analog emulation? If it’s just a hypothetical about whether it can be accomplished then definitely please ignore me.

Side note: It is actually interesting to me to imagine code that degrades over time like a Space Echo though.

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https://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy here you go :wink: programming language which has entropy built in. Not on code level but on runtime, but still interesting nonetheless.

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I’ve got an old sampling drum machine here, a RSF SD140. A battery keeps the RAM alive when it’s off, but mine came with the original battery which had degraded. The longer I’d leave the power off, the more degraded the sample would get. Sometimes the result was cool, but it was unpredictable. Always thought it would be an interesting thing to model and make more controllable.

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That’s a wonderful idea. I suppose that, in practice, unless it were implemented as an overlay effect (such as a ‘glitcher’ slider or whatever) it would be difficult to prevent simply the rapid and rather boring total collapse of the instrument.

To offset my contribution to derailment: nice to see affection for Hydrasynth in here. I’ve had one for a bit over half a year and have found it mostly straightforward to use – the front panel is excellent I think. The snag has been the modulation matrix; being more familiar with modular synths I’ve found it disproportionately annoying to roll through menus to assign modulation. I’m such a lazy, fickle chump.

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Surprised this didn’t come up (unless it did!).

But a nice trick in the akai force m, and presumably the mpc live/ one, is to autosample a monosynth to create a poly version. I have a bunch of sounds in my monologue that I want to convert like this.

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I’ll take a shot at this:

This is my area of research, and what you end up finding if you come in with a completely open mind is that digital simulation is one of the most important areas of research for understanding human perception. What is simulation if not an attempt to quantify a means of producing a convincing perception of something? If you simulate an analog synth and you do not produce something bearing a resemblance to an analog synth, it’s not much of simulation is it? The best, most efficient simulation is one that is uniquely attuned to human perceptual limits. If we stop looking at it like a horse race, and more as a way of framing how we, as a society frame our discussions about aesthetics, it becomes much more interesting.

If we don’t take the assumptions of the argument as fact, but use them as guiding questions, I think they become very helpful. For example, why would you want to simulate analog synthesizers in the first place?

Before we ask, that though, we might ask, what was the purpose of analog synthesizers to begin with? You will find a variety of answers to that question that will likely lead to different philosophies of synthesis. If you look at the way they were being used early on, it was often to simulate the sounds of acoustic instruments (very badly I should add). In other cases, it was to find new sounds that were previously unrealizable. Digital simulation of analog synthesizers, in general, serves neither of these purposes, so I would then ask again, why do we do it? Perhaps there was something else about analog synthesizers that was important, and this is why we keep returning to it. In that case, you might ask, what is it about the structure of a particular class of analog subtractive synthesis systems that seems to have importance to a large number of people?

Yes there are also sorts of cultural associations, and you could perhaps explain it that way, but then that leads to complex questions about the role of nostalgia in our society. It also might be worth noting the German roots of both the words Nostalgia and the Uncanny derive from the word for home (heimweh and unheimlich). The idea of the uncanny valley, or the nostalgic look of simulated media (as well as their relationship to one another) seem to have an outsized importance in how we think about aesthetics in popular culture.

I think there’s a lot to unpack here, and how you attempt to answer any of these questions will define how you think about creativity in your music. I am really interested in the differences between analog circuits and digital recreations because I think that you can learn a lot about our current culture through this. Just look at political ads, and how many of them simulate VHS or the look of black and white film; simulated mediation is becoming a symbolic language that’s being used to communicate information that’s not explicitly stated. As an educator in media studies, I find it insane that we do not have a methodology for evaluating these techniques. I think it’s a really important part of basic media literacy. For me, thinking about simulating analog synthesizers (which just happens to be something I know a lot about), is a tool for thinking about larger cultural issues.

Also totally unrelated, people talk about it all sounds the same in a mix, but I have yet to hear someone use a digital synthesizer and have it sound like John Foxx’s Metamatic, Morton Sobotnick’s Silver Apples of the Moon, or Pauline Oliveros’ Moon Bog. Most music production today sounds very similar, because particular mixing choices have become a sort of unspoken canon. I think that modern digital simulations of analog gear are reflections of those unspoken assumptions (hell, I would say the same for analog recreations), and this is part of why the distinction between digital and analog is less relevant on modern recordings.

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Look like nobody mentioned the Skulpt here. I’ve been looking at it for some time, because I like things to be really small, and I like synths to be polyphonic. So the Skulpt would tick those two buttons.
I am not 100% sure I like the sound, but it’s really hard to tell without having spent some time with it IRL.
The other things that I am skeptical about is the programming. It looks like the idea is that you program it using the computer/tablet/phone-based application, and use the controls on the thing just for live-tweaking. But I am wondering is there’s anything else I’m missing about it. Would love to hear how people who own it, like it UI-wise.

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I’m also curious about the Skulpt. Supposedly it supports MPE, but I haven’t heard about how well it is supported.

Allow me to be a wet blanket: the Skulpt is the only piece of gear I can remember returning after receiving it. I picked it up because they are currently $199 down from $299.

My main complaint is that it is the flimsiest, most toy-like piece of gear I’ve ever used. The encoders feel terrible. I realize it’s inexpensive, but I’ve used volcas that seemed like high-end equipment compared to this. It’s so lightweight and plasticy that it feels like’s going break all the time and it slides around while using it.

Patch programming is a pain, and the sound is nothing special. Unless you really, really, really want one, I would look elsewhere. I can usually find a redeeming quality to something and if I really don’t gel I will sell it after a while. But I could tell almost immediately that this was a clunker.

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Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. It being flimy was a bit my fear…

What made it such a pain to you? Having to use the editor software?

I wasn’t a huge fan of the software editor just because it felt really odd to be doing something on the computer to adjust the synth sitting in front of me. I don’t object to it on any moral grounds, it just wasn’t fun for me.

My main gripe was patch programming on the synth itself. I just didn’t jive with how they had it laid out and used shift functions. Maybe if it was more fun to use I would have given it more time to settle into what they pushing.

One positive is that I liked how they handled visual feedback - all the controls are encoders with no displays themselves, so the LEDs above the keyboard would display the values. That was kind of neat, but not worth the rest of the package to me.

Thanks for elaborating on that point!

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I’ve had the Skulpt for quite a while and it’s ended up taking a similar role to the volca keys for me (of the 6 I’ve had that and the FM are the only two I use). That’s to say: it is rarely a synth I go to for a primary sound in music I’m making. It feels lacking in a distinct character for a lot of purposes, but, when I need an extra voice for an accent it finds some use.

Physically it actually feels even less robust and convincing than the volcas, being a bit larger but made of similar thickness plastic, it feels even less dense. The encoders do feel a little more convincing than the Volca knobs, but their attempts at making them look more robust doesn’t really gel with such a light device. The truth is though, I’m not sure I really care about it being so flimsy. It just sits on a table and only gets touched for patch programming. I’m not taking it to shows, or playing the keyboard: I design a sound then there it sits.

I can comment a bit on sound design, with respect to using the panel (as I’ve never used the software editor). The Skulpt brings a surprising amount of sound design in a small package. The layout is a bit quirky, but beyond I never really found the diagonal buttons very problematic. Feature wise (I’ll come back to UX) it’s 4 voice, 2 oscillators (including detune turning each into 8), 3 EGs and 1 LFO per voice, plus a global LFO, distortion and delay, morphable filter, 4 sequencer automation lanes (could act as custom global LFOs depending what you record): It’s really got a lot to work with. As for the experience designing sounds on the panel: it’s quite consistently handled but requires a little more care at times.

An example of where this is good, is in adding modulation routings (there are 8 slots): each mod source has a button, press that button, then turn an encoder to set the depth of modulation to that parameter. Where it is not so good is in its modality. Specifically there are shift functions on every knob and shift latches which can be handy but also leads to a lot of mistakes. As an example if I want to have aftertouch adjust the filter resonance:

  1. Aftertouch mod source is a shift function, so check if shift is on, of so do nothing, otherwise turn it on.
  2. Press the button with aftertouch source.
  3. Press shift to get out of shift mode as filter resonance isn’t a shift function.
  4. Turn the resonance knob to set the depth.
  5. Press shift again, so you can exit assign mode.
  6. Press the aftertouch assign button.

Let’s say I now want to adjust the filter cutoff. If I’m not thinking I grab the knob and turn it: the result is adjusting the filter eg depth. What I should have done is hit shift before doing this.

I think this illustrates the problem: it’s too small for its feature set. I’d say they handled it about as well as they could but you need to develop some human habits to compensate for the interface. This means, typically exiting shift mode as soon as your current logical edit is over. Similarly the LFOs share controls so there is a second modal LFO 2 button that selects whether that section refers to LFO1 or two.

All in all I’d call it a synth that checks a lot of boxes but does so with a lot of compromises. Ignoring the 4 Vs 8 voice difference I’d say the cobalt 8 or argon 8 represent much better options if you are looking for a primary musical voice. They have surprisingly similar feature sets to the Skulpt, but in a larger package with a display and more controls. That’s to say I think the Skulpt is over featured for its size and I don’t feel like a software editor really compensates for that if wanting a hardware control surface is your reason for owning hardware in the first place.

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Thanks a lot for the super-detailed recount! This definitely helps me a lot!

Oh man, that’s exactly the kind of thing I really not so good at. This feels like it would drive me crazy!

Let me throw in another piece of equipment:

The Sonicware ELZ 1

I did check it out some time ago, and there was one thing I found annouying, but I can’t remember what it was. It seems like a OP-1 copycat, but is pretty different feature-wise.
Anybody tried one?

Somewhere between an OP-1 and an Organelle, perhaps? (Purely based on first impressions)

Well i guess this one is a competitor to Digitone in terms of sound engine and even some interface decisions look similar

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I very much like the “operator mixer” section. It’s like they merged an Akemie’s Castle with a Digitone.

The wavefolder sounds a little unusual and interesting, like it’s generating some growl below the fundamental.

I’m not in the market for another synth at this point, but if I were this would be on my list :slight_smile:

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$800, exactly the price of Wavestate. I wonder if this is also Raspberry Pi-based like the Wavestate. The UI looks well thought through and the synth engine is an interesting take with the additional subtractive synthesis features.

On the flip side: I don’t have space for another keyboard on my studio desk and the provided one is both too short and too light action for my taste. The screen is smallish and despite the knobs and faders there’s still quite some menu diving in this review. The sequencer won’t be very useful in practice for being so simple. I imagine most users of this will have it hooked up to a bigger system anyway. It’s not a standalone workstation.

A $600 version of this without the keyboard, just like the Minilogue XD Module, would have been really interesting to me.

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Didn’t the earlier versions look much more like a DX-7?