Pronouns

[Starthief]

(somehow this shows up as responding to the wrong user, sorry about that)

I mean get all that sure…but now its I want my “preferred” pronoun or else I will feel invalidated or general bad vibes

It’s a form of misgendering. It’s an active insult if you have been asked to respect a person’s pronouns, but continue not to.

You’re telling someone that your perception of them, based on a rigid binary standard, is more important than their reality.

Online, when all you have to go by is an abstract user name and maybe profile image, you’re telling them that your random guess between “he” and “she” is somehow more accurate than their “they.” That’s just absurd.

[xidnpnlss]

So it’s more important to you to internally deliberate whether you want to engage with what you see as

the exponential complexifying of egotistical projection. Mostly arising out of western english speaking society

Than just saying “Ok. I respect you.”

[alanza]

Again. It’s impressive.

Let’s keep it chill, everyone.

[xidnpnlss]

Sorry. I didn’t mean that to come off as anything but looping back around to my original point. Deleted.

[mystasea]

Actually if your talking about me personally my perception of people is not how you say based on rigid binary standards…at least I dont think so…ive been reading and re-reading that sentence and I am actually not even quite sure what it means…possible what you mean to say is my wording of them may be based on a rigid binary standard and that is possibly affecting the outcome of the multiple realities that are interacting and a so called negative outcome at that…for this misgendered one…well I actually have no desire to affect said persons reality in such a manner. It is probable that I would just give in to what they wanted me to say or I may just “get it” in the moment and be done with it.

[oot]

There has been a lot of meaningful conversation in this thread and I think there can be even more. I really hope it doesn’t get locked.

[renegog]

for a slightly different take to your original request: pronouns dont have to be about validation all the time, and you dont have to try to “validate” people all the time. It’s also about precision of language. By not normalizing the useful sharing of pronouns, we’re obscuring facts that are useful in using precise language. I dont need your validation - we dont know each other! - but if youre referring to me it might be useful to know how to.

[mystasea]

well it is a near instantaneous deliberation…I am sorry if my intellect veers in directions not approved for these situations…I would mostly just give the other person what they wanted and be entertained by it in this situation

[interpretnull]

Is “he/they” different from “he/him”? As in (hope this isn’t too personal) indicative of some fluidity? or is the they there just to denote common usage?

Just wanna check if I am doing it right.

[eblomquist]

I added he/they as well…

He because I’m quite obviously a cis male and that’s what most folks will call me anyway…

They because my soul is not defined by my biology or my assigned gender and because I hope the language and culture evolve away from needless and sometimes hurtful presumptions…

[wheelersounds]

Afaik, someone who lists their pronouns as “he/him” would prefer never to be referred to as “they” or “she.”

I list multiples because I don’t have a solid grounding in masc identity (and it’s been harmful/toxic for me personally), but I don’t really feel upset about “he” as a pronoun because I just put up with it. How I happen to be feeling varies from minute to minute (masc, femme, null), and the neutrality of “they” allows me the flexibility to express all of that. I have the privilege to express myself regardless, but I feel seen and acknowledged when my friends use “they.” I wouldn’t expect a stranger to do it, but it’s so very nice when someone asks.

That being said, thank you for asking! Does that answer your question?

[Angela]

If you think your pronouns are “normal” and you’ve never been misgendered I encourage you to question that feeling and consider that actions like putting your pronouns on your social media and email signature can do a lot (especially in a work place) to help normalize the stating and respecting of peoples pronouns.

I’ve been misgendered even though my pronouns are ‘normal’ (didn’t know whether to put that in quotes or not…they’re not “sassy” quotes…just quoting as used below). I’ve changed the appearance of my name on here so it includes them. Before you mentioned it I didn’t think about how doing that would help others feel more comfortable–so thanks.

Ok, let’s see what else is going on on this thread…

[mystasea]

Well since I am here I may as well state that I have no preference and although I am mostly in a him type scenario I would not at all be offended by she…it would be quite flattering actually…In my day job responding to queries on a company facebook page I am often assumed to be Ma’am (in India people use these old english courtesies) and so I live with that.

They sounds a bit wrong but ill live. While living in Australia I was amused by many folks referring to their singular selves as Us. It just felt right, maybe it was the accent but I never questioned it, even used it a few times. No doubt this is a different context.

[rknLA]

I keep thinking of something like “he/him, they/them-compatible” for myself, but often second-guess the phrasing of the latter.

My intention with it, and approach for myself is, roughly, I identify as male, and consider they/them to be gender-ambiguous, so I wouldn’t find being referred to as “they” to be misgendering, but rather, a refusal to acknowledge a gender, and I would like to figure out how to communicate “I am OK with not having an explicit gender attached to all of my references” in fewer words.

Perhaps this ship has already sailed, but I do find “it” as a reference to a person to be dehumanizing, and to carry more stigma than respect in a general use, default case. English disambiguate “who” and “which” (“My bicycle, which is waiting outside” vs “My friend, who is waiting outside”), so “they” seems more appropriate than “it”, to me.

That said, if someone said their preferred pronouns are it/it’s, I would do my best to comply with those wishes.

The whole “but ‘they’ is plural” argument exhausts me. Aside from the evidence that it’s been used as a singular long ago, it’s also IMO exasperatingly pedantic and usually selectively so; if someone is going to be pedantic about singular-they, then consistency suggests they also shouldn’t use most modern colloquialisms, don’t say “um” in between words while they speak, and like, don’t call a record dope or a beat sick or a rhyme tight, keep using Thou, and maybe idk also get vaccinated for bubonic plague ¯_(ツ)_/¯

(That rant isn’t directed at anyone here specifically, just like, language is malleable… being rigid about singular-they and lax about other language mishaps just feels like thinly veiled intolerance)

[interpretnull]

Yes it does answer my question, thank you. And thank you @eblomquist for your input too.

Actually, both of your responses surprised me. I actually have never encountered someone being uncomfortable with they. I asked because I just presumed it was implied that everyone has they as acceptable on their list regardless of what else is there. I can see from @renegog’s post about the default that maybe I should have a think about that position though.

I was under the impression they/them/they’re used for a singular person was common parlance in most native-english speaking places. I tend to infrequently use pronouns regardless of scenario but I hadn’t seen “they” being a default put this way before. I had always thought of “they” as neutral and therefore only indicative of an affirmed gender non-binary identity if explicitly stated (or maybe I should say requested). cis people stating their preferences is something I hadn’t thought to do. To be honest, I would probably interpret he/him in a bio on instagram or twitter as a jab at non-cis people had I seen it before this thread. I certainly see the utility for normalisation of the practice now it had been pointed out.

Maybe I just rarely use pronouns due to my mum angrily shouting “Who’s she!? The cat’s mother!?” if I ever dared refer to her as such

[tehn]

we

[renegog]

i think it’s about context – if no one’s told you otherwise it seems unlikely you would get in trouble or hurt too many feelings with a well intentioned “they”, but you might get corrected, of course. There is a malicious thing (mentioned above) where people will insist on using “they” to refer to a trans person with explicitly stated he or she pronouns. I think that’s mostly what I and others were referring to.

there’s often a fear or worry (this is not at you @interpretnull, just in general) from cis people that they’re going to not know what to say. In my experience, the expectation isn’t that everyone has to guess correctly right off the bat, but that we should ask and listen and respect people’s wishes once we’ve been told. When I get nervous calling someone by their name or pronouns (especially when they’re not the ones I’m used to) I try to remind myself that I’m centering myself instead of the other person and any difficulty is not a relevant to them and not worth bringing up. A performative apology is always a bad look when you slip up or get corrected – correct and move on nobody wants to talk about pronouns this much in their day-to-day life!

[interpretnull]

I guess I always thought people would use binary pronouns in the case of misgendering someone intentionally.

That’s fine even if it was directed at me. Personally, I think it is more helpful for people on all sides to not be so precious about this issue in the case where discussion and/or confusion is without ill will. I would like to think people would just correct me if I got it wrong, at which point a polite “sorry” and mental note should be enough. As I said before I tend to not use pronouns too often but not consciously with strangers. Add to that it’s not actually all that common to be in a situation where you would use a pronoun for a stranger where that stranger would hear it also. Additionally, I would say that instance in the population of people who prefer a pronoun which is different from what seems unambiguous based on their appearance (and I don’t just mean cis here) is probably very small. Add all that together and it seems instances of accidental misgendering seem both rare and, ironically, understandable. That just leaves the arseholes…

[karol]

And one thought about visibility per including this pronouns. I think it is important because it raises awareness. When someones views/gender etc is the default it is very easy to fall into thinking that gender doesn’t matter that much in daily life, while people who are not „default” are often struggling every day because how society treats them.
And this probably helps to avoid situations where art etc. of non binary people is used against them. For example nationalists in Poland while oppossing Pride Marches often sing „Rota” which is fucking stupid (as the whole nationalist thing) because author of this song was a woman who was in relationship with other woman.

[rbxbx]

ever so slightly relevant, and to be something of a palette cleanser

edit: @rknLA I actually do have one friend that goes by it/its and I gladly oblige but yeah, that’d be a weird one to use with someone without them prompting you to do so.