Sorry. I didn’t mean that to come off as anything but looping back around to my original point. Deleted.

Actually if your talking about me personally my perception of people is not how you say based on rigid binary standards…at least I dont think so…ive been reading and re-reading that sentence and I am actually not even quite sure what it means…possible what you mean to say is my wording of them may be based on a rigid binary standard and that is possibly affecting the outcome of the multiple realities that are interacting and a so called negative outcome at that…for this misgendered one…well I actually have no desire to affect said persons reality in such a manner. It is probable that I would just give in to what they wanted me to say or I may just “get it” in the moment and be done with it.

There has been a lot of meaningful conversation in this thread and I think there can be even more. I really hope it doesn’t get locked.

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for a slightly different take to your original request: pronouns dont have to be about validation all the time, and you dont have to try to “validate” people all the time. It’s also about precision of language. By not normalizing the useful sharing of pronouns, we’re obscuring facts that are useful in using precise language. I dont need your validation - we dont know each other! - but if youre referring to me it might be useful to know how to.

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well it is a near instantaneous deliberation…I am sorry if my intellect veers in directions not approved for these situations…I would mostly just give the other person what they wanted and be entertained by it in this situation

Is “he/they” different from “he/him”? As in (hope this isn’t too personal) indicative of some fluidity? or is the they there just to denote common usage?

Just wanna check if I am doing it right.

I added he/they as well…

He because I’m quite obviously a cis male and that’s what most folks will call me anyway…

They because my soul is not defined by my biology or my assigned gender and because I hope the language and culture evolve away from needless and sometimes hurtful presumptions…

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Afaik, someone who lists their pronouns as “he/him” would prefer never to be referred to as “they” or “she.”

I list multiples because I don’t have a solid grounding in masc identity (and it’s been harmful/toxic for me personally), but I don’t really feel upset about “he” as a pronoun because I just put up with it. How I happen to be feeling varies from minute to minute (masc, femme, null), and the neutrality of “they” allows me the flexibility to express all of that. I have the privilege to express myself regardless, but I feel seen and acknowledged when my friends use “they.” I wouldn’t expect a stranger to do it, but it’s so very nice when someone asks.

That being said, thank you for asking! Does that answer your question?

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I’ve been misgendered even though my pronouns are ‘normal’ (didn’t know whether to put that in quotes or not…they’re not “sassy” quotes…just quoting as used below). I’ve changed the appearance of my name on here so it includes them. Before you mentioned it I didn’t think about how doing that would help others feel more comfortable–so thanks.

Ok, let’s see what else is going on on this thread…

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Well since I am here I may as well state that I have no preference and although I am mostly in a him type scenario I would not at all be offended by she…it would be quite flattering actually…In my day job responding to queries on a company facebook page I am often assumed to be Ma’am (in India people use these old english courtesies) and so I live with that.

They sounds a bit wrong but ill live. While living in Australia I was amused by many folks referring to their singular selves as Us. It just felt right, maybe it was the accent but I never questioned it, even used it a few times. No doubt this is a different context.

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I keep thinking of something like “he/him, they/them-compatible” for myself, but often second-guess the phrasing of the latter.

My intention with it, and approach for myself is, roughly, I identify as male, and consider they/them to be gender-ambiguous, so I wouldn’t find being referred to as “they” to be misgendering, but rather, a refusal to acknowledge a gender, and I would like to figure out how to communicate “I am OK with not having an explicit gender attached to all of my references” in fewer words.

Perhaps this ship has already sailed, but I do find “it” as a reference to a person to be dehumanizing, and to carry more stigma than respect in a general use, default case. English disambiguate “who” and “which” (“My bicycle, which is waiting outside” vs “My friend, who is waiting outside”), so “they” seems more appropriate than “it”, to me.

That said, if someone said their preferred pronouns are it/it’s, I would do my best to comply with those wishes.

The whole “but ‘they’ is plural” argument exhausts me. Aside from the evidence that it’s been used as a singular long ago, it’s also IMO exasperatingly pedantic and usually selectively so; if someone is going to be pedantic about singular-they, then consistency suggests they also shouldn’t use most modern colloquialisms, don’t say “um” in between words while they speak, and like, don’t call a record dope or a beat sick or a rhyme tight, keep using Thou, and maybe idk also get vaccinated for bubonic plague ¯_(ツ)_/¯

(That rant isn’t directed at anyone here specifically, just like, language is malleable… being rigid about singular-they and lax about other language mishaps just feels like thinly veiled intolerance)

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Yes it does answer my question, thank you. And thank you @eblomquist for your input too.

Actually, both of your responses surprised me. I actually have never encountered someone being uncomfortable with they. I asked because I just presumed it was implied that everyone has they as acceptable on their list regardless of what else is there. I can see from @renegog’s post about the default that maybe I should have a think about that position though.

I was under the impression they/them/they’re used for a singular person was common parlance in most native-english speaking places. I tend to infrequently use pronouns regardless of scenario but I hadn’t seen “they” being a default put this way before. I had always thought of “they” as neutral and therefore only indicative of an affirmed gender non-binary identity if explicitly stated (or maybe I should say requested). cis people stating their preferences is something I hadn’t thought to do. To be honest, I would probably interpret he/him in a bio on instagram or twitter as a jab at non-cis people had I seen it before this thread. I certainly see the utility for normalisation of the practice now it had been pointed out.

Maybe I just rarely use pronouns due to my mum angrily shouting “Who’s she!? The cat’s mother!?” if I ever dared refer to her as such :joy:

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:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart: we :heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:

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i think it’s about context – if no one’s told you otherwise it seems unlikely you would get in trouble or hurt too many feelings with a well intentioned “they”, but you might get corrected, of course. There is a malicious thing (mentioned above) where people will insist on using “they” to refer to a trans person with explicitly stated he or she pronouns. I think that’s mostly what I and others were referring to.

there’s often a fear or worry (this is not at you @interpretnull, just in general) from cis people that they’re going to not know what to say. In my experience, the expectation isn’t that everyone has to guess correctly right off the bat, but that we should ask and listen and respect people’s wishes once we’ve been told. When I get nervous calling someone by their name or pronouns (especially when they’re not the ones I’m used to) I try to remind myself that I’m centering myself instead of the other person and any difficulty is not a relevant to them and not worth bringing up. A performative apology is always a bad look when you slip up or get corrected – correct and move on :slight_smile: nobody wants to talk about pronouns this much in their day-to-day life! :stuck_out_tongue:

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I guess I always thought people would use binary pronouns in the case of misgendering someone intentionally.

That’s fine even if it was directed at me. Personally, I think it is more helpful for people on all sides to not be so precious about this issue in the case where discussion and/or confusion is without ill will. I would like to think people would just correct me if I got it wrong, at which point a polite “sorry” and mental note should be enough. As I said before I tend to not use pronouns too often but not consciously with strangers. Add to that it’s not actually all that common to be in a situation where you would use a pronoun for a stranger where that stranger would hear it also. Additionally, I would say that instance in the population of people who prefer a pronoun which is different from what seems unambiguous based on their appearance (and I don’t just mean cis here) is probably very small. Add all that together and it seems instances of accidental misgendering seem both rare and, ironically, understandable. That just leaves the arseholes…

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And one thought about visibility per including this pronouns. I think it is important because it raises awareness. When someones views/gender etc is the default it is very easy to fall into thinking that gender doesn’t matter that much in daily life, while people who are not „default” are often struggling every day because how society treats them.
And this probably helps to avoid situations where art etc. of non binary people is used against them. For example nationalists in Poland while oppossing Pride Marches often sing „Rota” which is fucking stupid (as the whole nationalist thing) because author of this song was a woman who was in relationship with other woman.

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ever so slightly relevant, and to be something of a palette cleanser

edit: @rknLA I actually do have one friend that goes by it/its and I gladly oblige but yeah, that’d be a weird one to use with someone without them prompting you to do so.

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I’m very grateful to @renegog for starting this topic. The original issues that motivated it – raising awareness of gender nonconformity, and above all breaking down the default assumption of cis/male in electronic music, are laudable and I’d like to contribute in any way I can.

Unfortunately, when considering what pronouns to choose for myself, I’m not only at a loss but am also seeing how this entire discussion exposes problems with my own visibility, problems which are much more serious than I’ve let on and have also been at the root of my increasing absence here. As for visibility and validation in general, I hope I can provide something of value, because I’ve felt these problems very deeply.

While it’s been acknowledged on an abstract, intellectual level that gender does not equal identity, the implicit assumption that using the correct pronouns puts paid to the problem of mischaracterization once and for all does sort of make this mistake, and is thus for me highly incorrect. That is, I don’t want the mere use of a pronoun to give the idea that there’s not something still very “off” in the very concept as it applies to me.

For there are aspects of ‘identity’ for which gender is commonly taken as a proxy – and no, I’m not talking sexuality, ethnic, or religious identity, though each in various ways ‘intersects’ – rather, there is something that always gets presupposed along with gender; while it may not be more basic than gender, it’s at the very least equiprimordial. And yet – at least in the modern West, though curiously in no other era or culture – it remains completely unquestioned.

And if all this sounds weird, guess what, it is! I am very weird and proudly so. The fact that weirdness and its deep interconnections with both wyrd and earth has been completely forgotten, and thus today it is conceived only negatively – as a privative modification of the commonplace, rather than as something that in itself has a positive content is the deepest wound of our age. Go read Mark Fisher or Erik Davis on the weird, they do the concept far more justice than I can, while each taking very different approaches. I’m not going to save you from the work, not in this post. But the knowledge is out there.

So for me-- and I speak only specifically in my case – the concepts of nonbinary, agender, fluidity, and so on – whether or not indicated properly by ‘they’ – simply serve to direct attention where it shouldn’t be. Even in the negation of gender the idea of gender gets performed. One’s sight is directed to a certain ‘axis’ or ‘plane’ and thus prevented from looking up or through to the thing that’s perhaps more fundamental, and this is what’s most harmful to me.

So why does this all matter, why are visibility and validation even concerns?

On one level – the fact this question is even asked is already appalling to some degree – I would hope that as a default others would be welcomed, listened to, and valued for who they are. That trust or respect would be a default condition until it’s violated and only then would the person be shunned. That I would need to appeal to or demand some ‘right’ to be validated especially when others are valid by default is in itself an appalling notion, and I will not legitimize it by discussing it further.

However, on another, perhaps more descriptive level, I need to address what invisibility and invalidation mean for me personally, especially in terms of personal pain, in hopes this can dissuade others from considering the issue unimportant just because it hasn’t affected them. There is, of course, a problem in the very fact this needs to be done, in that the emotional labor falls completely on the one(s) who are invisible or invalidated, rather than the ones who have made these consequences an issue for ‘debate’.

So I see an easier sort of answer, which is the one perhaps more relevant to gender, which is that invisibility in the ways it’s bound up with all sorts of privilege can have immediate material consequences.

When women are continually asked questions no man gets asked, for instance whether they actually “did the music” and so on, this line of questioning besides being degrading in its own right is often directly correlated with missed or unequal opportunities. So if the scene gets seen for what it is; i.e. not 100% cis/male (or perhaps not even 20%…) these types of questions and the actions which accompany them can hopefully vanish.

But this I actually don’t want to go into here, as @renegog already explained this well and the article they linked also went into this. I also don’t want to suggest any direct consequences for economics and privilege in my case – more to explain the difficulties with my own compliance and the pain I deal with continually, here and elsewhere.

What I’d like to draw attention to as regards “invisibility” instead are the implications of a certain kind of homelessness. [And in that my use of this term may be insensitive, I apologize but will explain its use in reference to the fact a member once referred to lines as their ‘home’. Which made me realize how inadequate this concept was for me. I mean only to negate this concept as it was thereby expressed, if I come across a better one I’ll gladly modify it.]

Often during the day, one is thrown in the midst of things, at work or otherwise in a public environment, forced to express or even conceive of oneself entirely though the eyes of others; however at home, there’s maybe some opportunity to rest and recuperate, to fall back on a more informal language or to be content with silence as the means by which one is understood, even if only to oneself, when alone.

A single day is not so bad; but what happens if this “day” never ends? What happens if there is no home to which one can retreat? Does one not see the continual distress and weariness, of always having to go through this torturous process of self-translation and forced adoption of a language which is not one’s own? That sure – it at times can be a highly productive challenge – but that being “on”, being challenged all the time with no “off” time does not take its toll?

That there is homelessness, to begin with, is easily expressed: we are invisible in the experimental music community and experimental music is invisible in our community. So neither works for me in terms of “home.”

The mechanism in this invisibility, to put it plainly, is elitism. Which is a topic in its own right, and I think it’s too often dismissed or considered by the experimental music community to have been ‘solved’ when all they’ve done is appropriate things and it’s today more of a problem than ever. And it’s often the cloak of acceptability under which dangerous prejudices may hide. I’m happy to provide paradigmatic cases implicating all the usual “idols” [Cage, for one] – while at the same time considering the problem not personal but institutional – but again I cannot hope to address the full range of this topic here.

The second and perhaps deeper consideration, and the means by which this homelessness becomes “material” is, and especially in my case, the role music itself has in my identity and the role identity plays in general throughout all forms of creative practice. And I’m hardly alone in this because the more authentically specific one lets something be the more universal it really does become. This is in any art form, painting, photography, music whatever.

For instance, I do not even record anything because what’s the point? I can’t abide the “easy way out of presenting things without accompanying themes which would simply perpetuate the lie that all this is “just music” rather than some sort of integral practice. Separating the art from the artist is most especially in this sense a dangerous lie – it’s not just for when the artist does “bad things”.

But on the other hand, I’d have to engage a lot of people in this other community to help tell my story. And I’m not certain that I wouldn’t be facing a lot of so-called “appalling questions” (to use Ilhan Omar’s term) which while factual to some degree, could apply equally to normative groups but are never asked. For instance it’s never asked of teachers why some are pedophiles, of Christians why some blow up buildings, of whites why some commit mass shootings. It’s just taken for granted that these are aberrant whereas for other groups they are normalized. And then also consider, even if an individual question is not so bad, the cumulative effect of it being asked over and over again not allowing anything else takes its toll… there is a war of attrition here which always defeats me in the end.

Lastly, in my case threats have been involved as recently as earlier this year. Not here of course but I thought I should mention this, in case anyone thinks this doesn’t happen, despite many aspects of my privilege which I acknowledge.

So in the end, because there “is” gender I might as well go with “he” or “they”, both are fine. But neither are univocal in the sense that what they mean in my case has anything to do with what they mean “normally” – if there is such a (fixed) meaning. And while I’m not ready to speak further, I do not want the problem of my invisibility to go anymore unexpressed or for people to presume that it’s resolved simply by clarifying the issue of gender. I do hope this small action can help diminish others’ pain.

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Just because I think I haven’t recently, thank you, sincerely, for sharing with us what you do.

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8 posts were merged into an existing topic: …to be an artist