When I was a sociology student 15 years ago a had gender studies which I found extremely interesting and thought provoking. I never could’ve imagined it would become such a cultural phenomenom, knocking on the door of the mainstream culture. Also the succes in legislation in several western economies. I live in a very liberal country, the major cities most of all. Where there is less of a struggle to be able to be according to your inner persuation. I met non-binary folks, queer folks, post-op transexual people. Alle on one workfloor of the bank I worked at.

I have conservative values (mind you, European conservatism is only ever so slightly to the right of Bernie Sanders proposals).

But the extremely secular environment is very permissive of alternative sub-cultural norms. Over here the religious person is expected to keep zealous ideas for their own living room. Not the queer person or people who think differently about gender.

The post-op lady was immediately accepted by the girls, as per normal. Gay Gents where able to speak to straight men tot find out what their preference was as normal coleague conversation.

An intolerant person would be more likely to lose some social currency. Then the non-mainstream colleague.

Meet people where they are at, be kind first in a geniune warm way, connect with them. That is more important than any technicality.

Unless someone thinks it is their job to correct others with superior technical knowledge when the topic is about matters of the heart. This topic isn’t about a bureaucratic rule change in Kafka land, it’s not as complicated. You’re own politics are not threatened by other people having other ideas and promoting them. It’ll all come out in the wash.

3 Likes

Hi! I’m Geoffrey, my pronouns are they/them, thanks for including me!

When I say that kind of introduction, it unfortunately often really does become a conversation of whether or not they is a singular pronoun (which it is) and not about me as a person or an interpersonal conversation (which feels demeaning). It feels like talking about the thing rather than talking about the person dehumanizes me, which is a form erasure. Assumed norms of binary gender and using language in such a way to support that can feel alienating to those who not only live outside of the binary but also strive to shift the culture toward gender equality and equity.

Making the conversation about whether or not a word or its usage is valid is a tactic toward making the person invalid. And I want to be clear that I’m not saying this is what anyone here is doing specifically, but rather that this is definitely a weapon that is used by people who do not want equity. So it’s important to realize this and point it out so that those who want equity and those who want to be allies aren’t falling into the trap of using the weapons of the intolerant.

25 Likes

Thank you, I was trying to find a way to say that. I think it’s used as a way to deflect from talking about (non-)acceptance of gender identity, to something people see as less controversial. It’s also people being defensive of their own habits. Somewhat similar to white people, well-meaning and liberal, insisting they’re not racist when even other white people see their racism.

(And as an aside, I wanted to be clear I’m not saying “all white people are racist,” but some who don’t think they are, are. My dad for one. I still struggle with learned prejudices myself. And I’m not making any accusations of anything here, it’s just the grammar argument always happens and always at least looks like this sort of deflection.)

Here’s a Unitarian sermon that was linked to elsewhere yesterday, which I think is relevant, about what happens when our methods of categorizing people fail.

8 Likes

I also want to add that language doesn’t work how many cis white college educated people want to impose that it does. I was taught incorrectly. I had to do a lot of unlearning, so I feel this deep within my being.

Language is a contextual tool for us to relate to each other. Language is alive. The best part about language is that we can interogate our meaning when we are unclear. Rules help make sense of it, but they are not hard and fast; context and culture and even community matter (and 20 chars).

17 Likes

From the sermon you linked:

Often, what appears to be bigotry can be more accurately described as resentment at being thrown off-script, and a refusal to improvise. In practical terms, that kind of stubbornness will usually put people on the same team with bigots, even if they don’t feel bigoted internally. They aren’t aware of hating anybody, they just don’t want to change.

Yup.

12 Likes

It’s honestly very easy to do and if it makes people feel validated then just do it. I think the arguments about “proper” grammar are so very tired and end up (maybe not intentionally) placing a weird other-ship on people that fall outside of the gender binary and feel comfortable being addressed that way (myself included, so maybe i’m biased.)

7 Likes

I am a big fan of FOLKS. or potentially the singular “FOLK”

7 Likes

Additionally, I know people like to hate on “y’all” because it has associations with under-educated southern US stereotypes, but “y’all” is heckin’ useful.

8 Likes

i love yall and folks and y’all folks in particular :slight_smile:

8 Likes

y’all folks are all great thems

7 Likes

Not to get too deep in the grammarian weeds after we just left them, but I guess I would argue that in practice—especially in its home territory of the Midwestern United States—“you guys” is gender-neutral.

For some reason, a too-careful usage of “y’all” or “folks” from some kinds of people can really set my teeth on edge; I think it brings back memories of people for whom the appearance of being woke was more important than any actual practice. Not really a criticism, just strange trivia about my feelings about words I guess xD

8 Likes

oh & fwiw my pronouns are he/him and I’m bout to add that here + on my ig bc of this conversation & encourage others to regardless of perceived standard-ness

5 Likes

I added mine as well. Also non-US people might not always understand, fine intricacies of the language. As an aside. :speech_balloon::thought_balloon:

2 Likes

I would just like to voice a support for this idea and added my pronouns to the summary. English can be sometimes convoluted for native and non native speakers and I wholeheartedly support anything that might help people feel better (as a side note in my native language often the gender information is contained in the verb used, for example the sentence “I went to the shop” said by someone who identifies as female would be “Poszłam do sklepu” while someone who identifies as male would say “Poszedłem do sklepu” - I don’t know if this is a good or bad thing (and it obviously is lacking in regard to non binary people) I just thought that it might be interesting for some).

1 Like

Hi. Sorry for the tangent, but a quick comment about a bit of language in your post. I don’t mean this as a “call out” or anything, I thought my reasoning could be useful for others to read.

I do not like the term “post-op.” It implies finality. That transition is complete and one is a real woman now. And, it places an undue emphasis on a single medical procedure. Transition is a complex, multifaceted thing, and any surgery is only one small part of the transition experience.

While medical transition is common, it isn’t required to be trans. Medical transition requires a lot of time, resources, and access. Even in countries that nominally support trans people, it can take years to get access to basic medical care.

Medical transition itself also isn’t a “one size fits all” sort of thing. Many trans women don’t want genital confirmation surgery (GCS). For others facial feminization surgery (FFS), breast implants, or other gender affirming cosmetic surgeries are a better use of limited resources or time.

Again, sorry for the off topic, somewhat rambling post. I hope it was somewhat informative.

14 Likes

@Calytrix

I’m Dutch, what is the correct term in this case?

This is my go-to…

I’m turning 60 in a few weeks and definitely have generational habits, such as addressing a roomful of students as “you guys”… in the day it simply meant everyone, there was no gendered implication… but I get it, I hope… it’s just really difficult to reprogram the vocabulary of childhood…

[Language creates deep neural pathways as well as a sense of meaning and a root for identity… this works both ways, whether asking to be referred to by a non-standard (culturally) pronoun or asking not to have your language changed when you don’t get why it should…]

I think the same thing is happening around the singular they… it makes sense, it feels kind, but it also feels very strange in the mouth and the mind, like trying to pronounce phonemes from a rather foreign language …

Language and minds have evolved to evolve, so the insistence on correctness flies in the face of logic and love… but just as some folks desire to be considered regarding their preferred pronouns, a bit of compassion for those struggling to re-carve neuro-linguistic pathways would be nice…

I hope this doesn’t offend or sound privileged… I’m a strong ally, and only mean well…

5 Likes

When you need to specify that someone is trans, you can use trans as an adjective:

“The trans lady was immediately accepted by the girls, as per normal.”

In general though, I recommend not specifying that someone is trans when referring to them unless the situation requires it. Even when someone is public about being trans, they aren’t necessarily comfortable being publicly trans in all situations. The disclosure of their trans status should always be their choice.

And this is general advice, specific trans people may feel differently

6 Likes

I can see that, thanks :slight_smile:

1 Like

I would say (again, in general) the one case where it is acceptable to disclose that someone is trans is if they are out publicly and someone uses the wrong name or pronoun when referring to them.

Thank you for being receptive! :slight_smile:

2 Likes