#93

I’m constantly impressed by the intellectual hoops people will jump through to get out of respecting a group of people’s requests for recognition and validation.

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#94

So what your saying is explaining my reasons for choosing to act a certain way in a discussion about acting a certain way is actually an intellectual hoop to get out of acting a certain way… count me doubly impressed.

Respect and recognition are things that are earned not granted because you want it…nor is it the be end all of existence its just that people desire those things in all manner of situations in human society. But it is desire.

Edit: ok ive made a mistake in my statement about repect being earned…I did not mean it like that.

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#95

One observation in the OED’s blog post is that ‘you’, ‘your’ were at one time exclusively second-person plurals, with second-person singular terms being ‘thou’, ‘thy’. Several hundred years on those constructions are regarded more like, um, fancy-person singular? While ‘you’ remains in use in both plural and singular contexts, and ‘we’ seem to figure it out.

In reality I am using this ‘we’ in an editorial sense that’s sort of both singular and plural. I, a native English speaker, am used to disambiguating usages of ‘you’ and don’t really feel any less familiar with singular ‘they’, since it’s a construction I heard before, during, and after learning and forgetting how to diagram sentences or whatever. “I seem to figure it out” would contextually sort of linguistically smell wrong to me, or even imply that I think I have an easier time of this than other speakers, which is not my perspective, but my own experience is of course the only one I can speak authoritatively to, so in practice ‘I’ is kind of what I really mean, even if my construction tries to imply that my opinion is one held by a broader group.

I agree to some extent that this kind of pedantry is counterproductive to the conversation as it is intended. Enforcing linguistic “correctness” (as if such a thing could be enforced? or even codified in a consistent way?) has basically nothing to do with people explaining how language makes them feel. All kinds of other casual usages do not get subjected to this kind of scrutiny, and I’m skeptical that eyebrows get raised about it at all when the usage is not explicitly about respecting people’s stated gender expression. I do think it is an interesting jumping off point for starting to unpack some of people’s expectations about language, how the prescriptions we’re (<-- see appendix B :P) taught have a political history and implications, and get people to examine the different social components to these “abstract”, “technical” objections.

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#96

It just comes off that for very convoluted reasons it’s more important for you to choose not to respect these requests instead of choosing to respect them.

#97

My pronouns aren’t “preferred” they are my pronouns.

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#98

I never said I would not do it…I said it would be done at my discretion and explained what motivated that decision. Giving in to peoples egotistical notions is part of being a friendly human is it not?
Im sorry if this makes me sound like a robot.

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#99

(somehow this shows up as responding to the wrong user, sorry about that)

It’s a form of misgendering. It’s an active insult if you have been asked to respect a person’s pronouns, but continue not to.

You’re telling someone that your perception of them, based on a rigid binary standard, is more important than their reality.

Online, when all you have to go by is an abstract user name and maybe profile image, you’re telling them that your random guess between “he” and “she” is somehow more accurate than their “they.” That’s just absurd.

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#100

So it’s more important to you to internally deliberate whether you want to engage with what you see as

Than just saying “Ok. I respect you.”

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#101

Let’s keep it chill, everyone.

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#102

Sorry. I didn’t mean that to come off as anything but looping back around to my original point. Deleted.

#103

Actually if your talking about me personally my perception of people is not how you say based on rigid binary standards…at least I dont think so…ive been reading and re-reading that sentence and I am actually not even quite sure what it means…possible what you mean to say is my wording of them may be based on a rigid binary standard and that is possibly affecting the outcome of the multiple realities that are interacting and a so called negative outcome at that…for this misgendered one…well I actually have no desire to affect said persons reality in such a manner. It is probable that I would just give in to what they wanted me to say or I may just “get it” in the moment and be done with it.

#104

There has been a lot of meaningful conversation in this thread and I think there can be even more. I really hope it doesn’t get locked.

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#105

for a slightly different take to your original request: pronouns dont have to be about validation all the time, and you dont have to try to “validate” people all the time. It’s also about precision of language. By not normalizing the useful sharing of pronouns, we’re obscuring facts that are useful in using precise language. I dont need your validation - we dont know each other! - but if youre referring to me it might be useful to know how to.

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#106

well it is a near instantaneous deliberation…I am sorry if my intellect veers in directions not approved for these situations…I would mostly just give the other person what they wanted and be entertained by it in this situation

#107

Is “he/they” different from “he/him”? As in (hope this isn’t too personal) indicative of some fluidity? or is the they there just to denote common usage?

Just wanna check if I am doing it right.

#108

I added he/they as well…

He because I’m quite obviously a cis male and that’s what most folks will call me anyway…

They because my soul is not defined by my biology or my assigned gender and because I hope the language and culture evolve away from needless and sometimes hurtful presumptions…

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#109

Afaik, someone who lists their pronouns as “he/him” would prefer never to be referred to as “they” or “she.”

I list multiples because I don’t have a solid grounding in masc identity (and it’s been harmful/toxic for me personally), but I don’t really feel upset about “he” as a pronoun because I just put up with it. How I happen to be feeling varies from minute to minute (masc, femme, null), and the neutrality of “they” allows me the flexibility to express all of that. I have the privilege to express myself regardless, but I feel seen and acknowledged when my friends use “they.” I wouldn’t expect a stranger to do it, but it’s so very nice when someone asks.

That being said, thank you for asking! Does that answer your question?

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#110

I’ve been misgendered even though my pronouns are ‘normal’ (didn’t know whether to put that in quotes or not…they’re not “sassy” quotes…just quoting as used below). I’ve changed the appearance of my name on here so it includes them. Before you mentioned it I didn’t think about how doing that would help others feel more comfortable–so thanks.

Ok, let’s see what else is going on on this thread…

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#111

Well since I am here I may as well state that I have no preference and although I am mostly in a him type scenario I would not at all be offended by she…it would be quite flattering actually…In my day job responding to queries on a company facebook page I am often assumed to be Ma’am (in India people use these old english courtesies) and so I live with that.

They sounds a bit wrong but ill live. While living in Australia I was amused by many folks referring to their singular selves as Us. It just felt right, maybe it was the accent but I never questioned it, even used it a few times. No doubt this is a different context.

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#112

I keep thinking of something like “he/him, they/them-compatible” for myself, but often second-guess the phrasing of the latter.

My intention with it, and approach for myself is, roughly, I identify as male, and consider they/them to be gender-ambiguous, so I wouldn’t find being referred to as “they” to be misgendering, but rather, a refusal to acknowledge a gender, and I would like to figure out how to communicate “I am OK with not having an explicit gender attached to all of my references” in fewer words.

Perhaps this ship has already sailed, but I do find “it” as a reference to a person to be dehumanizing, and to carry more stigma than respect in a general use, default case. English disambiguate “who” and “which” (“My bicycle, which is waiting outside” vs “My friend, who is waiting outside”), so “they” seems more appropriate than “it”, to me.

That said, if someone said their preferred pronouns are it/it’s, I would do my best to comply with those wishes.

The whole “but ‘they’ is plural” argument exhausts me. Aside from the evidence that it’s been used as a singular long ago, it’s also IMO exasperatingly pedantic and usually selectively so; if someone is going to be pedantic about singular-they, then consistency suggests they also shouldn’t use most modern colloquialisms, don’t say “um” in between words while they speak, and like, don’t call a record dope or a beat sick or a rhyme tight, keep using Thou, and maybe idk also get vaccinated for bubonic plague ¯_(ツ)_/¯

(That rant isn’t directed at anyone here specifically, just like, language is malleable… being rigid about singular-they and lax about other language mishaps just feels like thinly veiled intolerance)

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