Yes, this is okay! Also, you folks might find this useful, it’s a question I get asked by students a lot: http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2020/is-it-okay-to-post-tracks-with-unlicensed-samples/

12 Likes

It costs money to take someone to court. Before a copyright holder goes after you, they have to asses whether that is money and time that is worth spending. Good lawyers bill $500-$1000 an hour. If you sold a few dozen Bandcamp downloads with an illegal snare drum sample in them, suing you is not likely to have a good cost/benefit ratio.

4 Likes

That is something I heard, but if you lose (and you probably will if they have proof) you’ll have to repay all the expenses right?

I think that is something that the person suing would ask for and the judge or jury would decide on a case by case basis. But I believe it’s a common outcome in successful cases. But I’m not a lawyer.

For what it’s worth. I released a techno/house album on vinyl some 10 years ago, with a very clear Duran Duran sample. The distribution said, “hell, let’s do it”. And we did. Nobody ever claimed any interest whatsoever. The printrun was 1000 copies. Meaning: as long as you don’t earn big bucks nobody will ever bother. Stamping to garbage some 700 vinyls is the most they could have theoretically achieve. With no gain. Awrite. But if your tune hits top ten things might get different.

LC

an interesting essay (not very interesting visuals except perhaps if you wish to be befuddled) on the amen break and recent history/ implications of copyright law (video’s almost 15 years old, not up to date legal advice or anything of the sort).

2 Likes

This is why it is important to clear samples in anything that is likely to generate real money: major-label releases backed by a marketing push, TV or film placements. The lawsuits are against people who use unlicensed samples in those kinds of commercial settings. If it’s just your Bandcamp selling a few dozen downloads, it would be stunning if anyone were to come after you.

2 Likes

Perhaps, I would like to add one more important point:
Any of the statements made so far seem to be only applicable in a certain jurisdiction and cannot be applied on a global scale.

I lived in countries where there is no such thing as copyright enforcement (even though copyright may nevertheless have been enshrined in law - the enforceability was/is just nonexistent).
And I lived in countries (or a country) where you may not be sued for copyright infringement damages when you are a small fish but where you would potentially still be liable to pay a hefty fee (in the hundreds) attached to a legal warning and takedown notice.

I think that it is important to mention these differences here to just to bring the discussion into a global perspective…

For all of this, I am very careful to avoid uploading any kind of sample material not created by myself (or obtained under a clear and open licence like some form of creative commons for example). Even tho there are moments where I’m tempted to do otherwise.

4 Likes

Good points. Not only does copyright law differ between countries, but so do the attitudes with regard to litigation.

The U.S. is known for being lawsuit crazy, but it also has a statutory doctrine of fair use that is broader than the fair dealing rules found in some other countries.

And then, you have to recognize that not every potential plaintiff is rational. There are some folks who will bring an otherwise crazy suit on the basis of principle, even though the reasonably anticipated damages may be less than the cost of the case.

1 Like

Can they come after you if you have significantly modified and mangled a copyrighted song?

You say it is stunning because they are not going to get much money from you if you only sold a few copies of copyrighted material?

Right. The cost/benefit ratio is the issue. Even just paying a lawyer to draft a cease-and-desist costs money.

2 Likes

Does anyone know any cases of someone who got sued because copyrighted samples mangled beyond recognition were used? That would be an interesting read

not sure if this is the best spot for this, but as someone who’s been interested in the surreal and depressing intersection of creativity, morality, and intellectual property law, this post challenged some of my long held assumptions about sampling, remix culture, etc.

(my assumptions: music IP court cases have molded “intellectual property” law to more closely resemble the colloquial definition of property, land: there is a finite amount of it, almost none of it is open to the public, and trespassers will be prosecuted. both the early anti-sampling verdicts against rap producers in the 90s, and the recent suits brought against robin thicke, katy perry, ed sheeran, etc, are basically just rent-seeking. intellectual property is theft)

if anyone doesn’t know how tiktok works: in addition to tracking user behavior (watch time, likes) and submitted metadata (hashtags), it does analysis on the actual videos themselves. the company claimed that it uses “natural language processing” and “computer vision technology”, presumably trying to distinguish humans from frogs, music from dialog, etc.

this is absolutely terrifying, but it works so well that, unlike previous apps, you don’t need to subscribe to content, or have subscribers in order for your content to be seen. the algorithm shows your post to people in your micro bubble, if they like it, it goes to a larger bubble, if they like it, it goes to a larger bubble, etc.

consequently, anyone can take a sound or video, recontextualize and repost it in any way they see fit, and potentially get traction. remix culture thrives on tiktok in complete defiance to the way things have been working in the “real world” of copyright law offline. i am not a big fan of the app (sensory overload), but this specific aspect has always been pretty inspiring to me. turns out it’s not without tradeoffs.

the writing in this article is so harsh that it almost feels petty at times (it’s pitchfork), but the problem it identifies at the end is something i will be thinking about:

Looking back, it’s funny to remember the intense utopianism surrounding the internet’s potential for the endless exchange and reinterpretation of music. Through cover versions, sampling, and mashups, you could create your own takes of popular songs, dissolving musical hierarchies and traditional producer-consumer relationships. In 2004, the ingenuity of Danger Mouse’s Grey Album—which cross-pollinated JAY-Z’s Black Album and the Beatles’ White Album, prompting a cease and desist from EMI—even raised questions about whether the capitalist recording industry had been “rendered superfluous” by more democratically-inclined bedroom producers. But these hopes have long been deflated and replaced with an annoyed wariness. As a VICE writer argued in 2016, “We live in a world where every popular musical creation is now at risk of being swiftly spliced, twisted and mashed up like a potato for RTs by a bored kid in the Netherlands with an Ableton crack.”

What’s annoying about Tiagz is how he vacuums up viral sounds with little consideration of their meaning or intention, seeing them as another blank canvas on which to blindly impose his brand. The popularity of his tepid trap beats only confirms the suspicion that the biggest money makers on TikTok will dance to anything. Tiagz’s remixing is not an emblem of creativity, but standardization; all audio is subsumed under the same utilitarian goal. Perhaps on TikTok, where genre means little to nothing, remixes in general lose potency: Producers usually pull from a limited, pre-selected pool of samples, and each trending audio can come with several versions—a slow + reverb remix, a lo-fi one, a mash-up with another popular song—so that it’s flogged until its eventual death. What you start to feel, essentially, is the smothering of spontaneity, the need to extract more and more attention out of ephemeral fun. When everyone has access to everything, perhaps closed creative borders become more appealing.

3 Likes

I thought that article was really interesting too. Although provocative, Pitchfork’s pessimistic conclusion seems way too alarmist since there have always been cultural remixers whose works come as close as I can imagine to truly objectively horrible art (see eg the wave of pop-culture remix/parody movies in the '00s such as The 41 Year Old Virgin Who Knocked Up Sarah Marshall And Felt Superbad About It [yikes, what a title]). This is nothing new, and I don’t think it’s anything to be worried about. Tiagz makes awful, lazy music, but there will always be lazy music that chases ephemeral pop-cultural trends – same as it ever was, I guess.

2 Likes

My old band made and released edits and remixes of many major label songs from the 60s to the 2010s. We disguised them by posting them on YouTube as MAJOR LABEL ARTIST NAME - HIT TRACK TITLE (MY GROUP’S NAME REMIX). And then pressing them on vinyl with our group’s logo as the only identifying mark. And selling 500-1000 copies of them.

Nobody ever once said shit or even complained. Never even got a YT takedown.

Unclear what one would have to do to attract enuff attention short of, you know, making tons of money to get the labels/artists/publishers to care, but we flouted the laws about as flagrantly as we could with zero penalty.

That’s not even including the samples of relatively easily identifiable tracks that were in our original music under our name alone. We toured the US and Europe off this shit and were covered by major underground media doing so.

3 Likes

That’s so nihilistic. I think it’s good that any kid with an Ableton crack can release something and have a shot at pulling an audience. How can that be a bad thing?

1 Like

i generally agree with you, don’t get me wrong––obviously that is preferable to how it would work if copyright laws as they stand were universally enforced. not sure if you saw the rest of the post but the author uses a big name on tiktok to examine how viral content spreads on the platform. i came away with the impression that he’s basically a drake-esque figure in the algorithm who is constantly looking for trending new sounds and “remixing” them in a really surface level way, effectively absorbing some of the viral power of the song without necessarily needing to do a good job on it because of his pre-existing audience.

like, i can remember that moment in the 2000s where it seemed like record labels could actually be on their way out, and now a decade later the hierarchy has reasserted itself through spotify/apple music etc, and now even after distribution costs have dropped to practically nothing, musicians are still only earning ~<20% of the revenue generated by the “music business.” this is just another aspect of that that i had not thought about much, how the same algorithms that were supposed to bring us the unknown netherland kid’s masterpieces are in practice increasingly being used to suppress that same kid.

this isn’t the whole point of the article, but it was what i thought was interesting about it.

3 Likes

I’m not sure whether this should be in “questions” or here. Went with “process” as I see another Fair Use question here.

I regularly receive phone messages/robo calls on my mobile despite being on the Do Not Call list etc. My understanding is these solicitation robo calls are not legal. Still, calls from one particular evangelist, I have made a point of saving thinking of incorporating them into a musical piece. So, in my mind this content is likely copyrighted in some arcane way, but it is delivered illegally. I get very few plays of my music, but if someone took these recordings and made something big, that actually earned money and received large play, do you think there would be grounds for claiming that copyrighted materials were being improperly used? In the visual arts world, I look at this a little like some of the kerfuffle over Richard Prince and Marlboro ads. I think that was super shakey legally and different courts have ruled both for and against Mr. Prince’s use of copyrighted material. Here is a link to one of the messages left on my vm:

I’m really interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this. Do you think there is any legal exposure for using a sample attained in such a manner. THX.

2 Likes

To me, as long as you aren’t just lifting it and claiming it as your own, it’s hard to imagine a context in which you’d use this audio in a manner that wasn’t Fair Use.
It gets cloudy if the work isn’t commentary / satire or genuinely transformative.
See also: entire history of collage in multiple media, Negativland, media hacking, etc.

4 Likes