Serge thread

[ht73]

The TKB certainly excels as a sequencer (with some helper modules), but don’t sleep on its potential as an expressive preset manager. A sixteen-fold bank of four preset voltages is nothing to sneeze at!

for me, the TKB is still lacking in an incredibly important feature, the ability to program the selection of stages – even just to automatically ‘load’ a new preset at a particular time.

In building a patch I find it very useful when something can be first done manually, then automates, so that hierarchies of musical structure can develop organically in the exploration rather than having to be fully conceived beforehand. Ideally each module should have both types of control.

Also, of the TKB’s I’ve tried, which have all been quite old (1980’s), the pressure pads are overly sensitive (very difficult to get nuanced control) and seem to have noticeably more latency than buttons. Of course, there’s a chance that the new designs are much improved, but I don’t know this firsthand.

So while I acknowledge the TKB is very well known, I personally would get much more out of the N-stage sequencer programmers, as I find the programmer function even more basic than the sequencer function. The basic idea of the programmer being more basic than the sequencer is already there in the 1973 designs.

[niall]

I’m not quite sure I understand your requirement, but I’ll take a stab at it - are you referring to the ability to change the range of active stages, a la the SQP-8? If so, then yes, that’s a very nice feature I especially like that a pulse to the reset input returns to stage one, but then it resumes within the selected range (at least, that’s how I’ve got mine configured).

I’m fortunate to have both the SQP-8 and the TKB, and I use them differently.

[ht73]

I’m not quite sure I understand your requirement, but I’ll take a stab at it - are you referring to the ability to change the range of active stages, a la the SQP-8?

In part, although I’m referring to something even more basic, the ability to select a particular stage by a pulse rather than having to manually press a button.

An application of this is changing the range of active stages. For instance, if you patch a set of pulse outputs to a mixer and then to the TKB reset, the TKB can itself be segmented into sub-sequences (regions) which repeat. [the mixer can be avoided if there are diodes on the outputs, which I think is the case with the later STS modules; otherwise there’s the usual risk of patching outputs together. The ‘Peak/Trough’ is good for this]. A more flexible approach is to reserve a certain row, say row #D, for the segmentation, where high values are meant to indicate a ‘reset’ at that stage. The ‘D’ output is passed first through a comparator, and then through an AND gate with the sequencer clock at the other input. The AND gate output is patched to the TKB reset. Then the region boundaries can be modified ‘live’, just by turning the row #D knobs, without needing to re-patch.

A straightforward application of these ‘programmable regions’ is to have one programmer select the ‘region’ of the second. Each ‘stage output pulse’ of the first programmer is patched to one of the ‘stage input pulses’, most likely the first one, of the corresponding region of the second programmer. So, for instance, you can have a drone in one voice and a melody in the second and the melody can change in a non-trivial way (i.e. not just by transposition) to accompany changes in the pitch of the drone.

I especially like that a pulse to the reset input returns to stage one, but then it resumes within the selected range (at least, that’s how I’ve got mine configured).

Yes, or actually with the SQP there are always two reset options: the ‘reset’ will return to stage 1, the ‘preset’ will return to the last selected stage. With the TKB the ‘reset’ acts always like the ‘preset’ – there is no ‘stage 1’ capability. I wish there were a SQP-16…

[niall]

Indeed, I like having both behaviors; it would be hard to have subsequences, to my mind, without a “preset”/reset to selected stage behavior. Better still would be a pair, reset and “stage 1” inputs, I suppose.

I see what you mean w/r/t to pulse-selection of stages; my mind usually turns to voltage-addressed stage selection, which I believe the R*S TKB offers (as does my beloved, but lately underused, Archangel), but that’s a useful feature, as well. Bah. More to covet.

[ht73]

my mind usually turns to voltage-addressed stage selection, which I believe the R*S TKB offers (as does my beloved, but lately underused, Archangel), but that’s a useful feature, as well.

That would be another way to make this happen, and probably an even better one. One could just reserve a ‘row’ on the first sequencer to select the region.

The Buchla 245 seems to have already had this idea with the ‘analog input’.

[niall]

There are so many ways to skin the proverbial, for sure. One sequencer line and a comparator to gate envelopes for the variable Q whilst also routing just the “high” steps through a VCA into delay or reverb gives you dry kicks and wet woodblocks in canyons and and and and…

Solving problems with the Serge is a joy, as your comparator explorations demonstrate.

[GrantB]

Then there was this CGS/COA panel for the progseq and TKB. Touch pads and stage select.

I have the panel and boards but it will likely remain unbuilt until my sequencer to synth ratio inverts.

[qwoned]

any time I see one discussing ‘feedback patching’ on Serge, it’s usually in reference to the following (primarily audio processor) modules: WAD, EQ, FRS, Matrix Mixer. maybe VCM sometimes (depending on which one). but, if one is without these modules, where does one go for their feedback needs while maintaining format continuity (besides the ol’ pseudo-approximate ‘cross-modulation’)?

[pmj]

if one is without these modules, where does one go for their feedback needs

Any feedback working its way around my system tends to come via any of the filters as a one-to-many signal router or from the Wave Multiplier split to several different locations

[pmj]

Recently overhauled / tweaked mini-Serge box, principally intended as a portable unit for live performances.

This was originally one of the 9" x 7" x 2" Humancomparator / zthee panels from ten years ago or thereabouts.

[cold_fashioned]

Whoa! Are these available anywhere, even if just in kit form?

[pmj]

The PCB’s are mostly available from CGS (and places like Modular Addict) and the enclosure is a Hammond 1444-972 so the building blocks are all DIY-able

[ht73]

Feedback should be tried (w/ audio or CV mixer, based on what’s appropriate) at every module, most things won’t make sense, but sometimes very interesting things can be discovered, the post on patch-programming comparators at all times makes use of feedback.

If the mixer doesn’t have this capability, inverters are also useful. Sometimes what doesn’t work at all results in something interesting if the phase of the feedback path is inverted.

For more straightforward audio feedback ideas, try to generate filter resonance externally, this is particularly useful with the variable slope VCF or variable bandwidth. In fact it has to be done with the variable bandwidth filter, because there is no resonance internally. To do this patch the bandpass output (or the variable width output) through a mixer and back into the filter. You may need an inverter as well. Then you can do the same with the various sections of the VCM in the feedback path to color the resonance. Sometimes feeding back the the high pass output works better instead.

Besides the mixer and inverter, another good companion is an envelope detector and VCA as this can help stabilize the feedback or keep it in the region with the most musically useful results. The feedback path itself is patched through the VCA. The idea is to monitor the feedback path or the output with the envelope detector output and use it, inverted, to control the VCA. This will make a compressor-like servo loop that acts against the tendency of the feedback to blow up.

So basically – try everything, but always keep these tools: mixer+inverter, sometimes envelope detector+VCA handy as companions.

[ht73]

Question: anyone know of anything similar to the PCO that is currently available (since there aren’t STS ‘custom panels’ anymore)? I’m trying to put together an oscillator bank panel.

i.e. something that tracks well over 6-8 octaves, multiple 1V/oct inputs, both triangle and saw outputs, and non-crappy (i.e. Roland 100/700-style) soft sync…

[pmj]

Maybe a bit short on inputs / outputs but the Stroh / Loudestwarning Pico Oscillator might be of interest:

stroh modular pico vco, 4U

Tracks 7-8 octaves according to the original description here:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1495950

[niall]

Double v/o inputs is pretty uncommon, though
I’m sure someone like LoudestWarning could wire up a solution for you. If having a scaleable expo FM input would suffice, then that presents more options, like the dual 555 VCO. Mine’s R*S format is perhaps discontinued, but I’ve seen them used. LW and other builders can certainly help, too.

The 555 VCO offers hard sync, but it sounds good and is a solid choice that tracks quite well when you have a good power supply.

[rmro]

I’m keen to have a go at building some Serge modules but wondering where best to start.

I’m in banana world with Ciat, Macumbista gear so looking at the RS kits on Thonk which are all euro is making me wonder if there are any banana alternatives.

I could be tempted to slowly build a euro system, say have a go at a Res Eq, something I could probably get use out of any slowly build up from there. Any suggestions would be great!

Last thing I build was a Rollz5 pcb, soldering skills feel fine just component ordering, full kits def preferred for me.

thanks

[louwrens]

Not sure if I understand correctly but the RS stuff comes in 4U banana modules as well. The only issue is that I haven’t seen full kits for them yet.

I don’t remember the specific video but I saw one where the guy from RS mentioned that his friend or someone has a RS Serge system in Eurorack format but with banana jacks instead of 3.5mm jacks. If that is true you can buy the thonk kits and fit them with bananas instead. Don’t know how much modification this would require. Maybe get in touch with RS. They have been very helpful with my queries in the past.

An alternative to all of this would be the Elby Euroserge. Eurorack format but comes with either 3.5mm jack or 4mm banana jacks. It also comes as kits or assembled.

[qwoned]

select R*S 4U modules are available as PCB/panel kits w/ SMD parts pre-placed, e.g. https://modularaddict.com/format/4u/randomsource-4u-dusgxl-pcbpanel

[emenel]

RS kits on Thonk which are all euro is making me wonder if there are any banana alternatives.

Look at the RS website directly, they have a lot more available and it’s all in 4U banana. Everything from their 4x4 modules to full panels as pcb+panel kits with SMD already done.

http://randomsource.net

They are also fast and good to deal with directly, it’s how I’ve built almost all my Serge.