#1060

Definitely. I was more saying that there are a good amount of DIY modules only available for euro rack due to it being more popular.

I think part of the draw for me is what Serge doesn’t have in addition to what it does. Namely that there are no screens since most are analog and modules seem like they are capable of doing many things but via patching not alternate modes or menu diving.

Euro Surge would be an option but I do think 4U seems like a nice size, especially since the knobs don’t seem as closely packed as is the trend in euro to get the HP down. I also like the idea of full panels.

#1061

Definitely leaning towards the first. With VCV Rack, Reaktor, Supercollider, Pure Data, etc. available I’m more interested in a machine to explore that works nothing like my computer rather than a one stop synthesis shop.

I’ve also thought about BugBrand because of some really amazing sounding demo videos but that seems even more niche.

#1062

i’ve really loved having both maths and dusg in the same case recently — they both are really powerful individually but together… they are unstoppable

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#1063

my first dusg arrives tuesday, and will sit next to maths. any patches you’ve enjoyed or tips?

#1064

as someone who switched from Serge to euro (not necessarily voluntarily), I don’t find this to be true. I know others have repeated this point, but it bears emphasizing: there is no difference between control and audio signals in Serge. very few eurorack manufacturers implement this principle, except perhaps tacitly (i.e. jacks are incidentally DC-coupled, but even then, arbitrary limits on frequency and amplitude ranges abound). I also find having multiples of the same module to be useful, which is quite difficult to achieve in euro due to space concerns.

I don’t think “the sound” in 4U is a real tangible quantity distinct from “the sound” of any euro format module. the RS stuff is about as audiophile as one can find, however, in both euro and 4U. generally, I think a useful thing about Serge is that I can’t really tell one is using such equipment when listening to music allegedly composed using Serge modules. they don’t really have a “signature sound” in the same way Buchla or whomever does. I see this as a positive. Moreover, I don’t find the modules to be particularly prescriptive in their compositional use.

Given control/audio distinction is suspended in Serge, patching with banana cables is much more efficient and secure. I would go so far as to state this as empirically true.

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#1065

When I said ‘control’, I was talking about control modules, ie… pressure plates, 0-ctrl, etc. I realize that control with voltages on the micro level is much more expansive in the serge environment.

I disagree, I think there is a Serge sound, just like any other system, it has its signature sounds. I hear it in other people’s recordings with Serge, it’s the sound of the wave shaping and the filters, especially the pinging of the VCFQ. it’s also the sound of many slightly irregular waveshapes coming from non traditional VCOs as well, such as the DUSG, again the filter oscillation, etc… It’s in the same camp as Buchla but slightly less warm to my ears, not in a bad way… For the guitar players, I equate Buchla to like using humbuckers and Serge to single coil. It know it’s huge generalization but I sat side by side for a few months with my current Serge setup and an Easel, and did lots of A/B ing. Neither could achieve the specific nuance of timbre the other possessed, even with a ton of tweaking. The wave folder on the Easel is way different than the wave folders in Serge. Had I could have afforded to keep both I would have but I decided the Serge stuff was more in line with the direction I wanted to go.

I’m probably not going to get rid of my 4u, who am I kidding. Stupid ‘GAS’ gets the gears turning.

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#1066

I’d be surprised that such slightly irregular waveshapes weren’t reproducible by other means. Not sure how DUSG is a ‘non-traditional VCO’. What makes it ‘non-traditional’? Because it can perform control functions? Isn’t a self-oscillating VCFQ just a sinewave? What am I missing?

Following your metaphor: I wouldn’t want a Les Paul to sound like a Stratocaster, and vice versa. I wouldn’t use a Les Paul to accomplish something I could do better with a Stratocaster, etc.

#1067

I was referencing this, when using the analogy of a single coil sound to a humbucker sound. You said you can’t tell when someone is using a Serge, I said in my opinion that there are definitely characteristic timbres present in a Serge system that are pretty inherent to a Serge. And I was comparing the Serge to single coil and Buchla to humbucker purely as a really loose metaphor because in the recordings I have heard with both Buchla and Serge, with my own limited experience with each, that Buchla tends to present more low-mids, and Serge seems to have a more strident upper mid character, in my totally generalized estimation, which is pretty much the first thing as think of when comparing those two types of pickups and the guitars that are generally associated with them. Neither is better, but it’s a general tonal profile that I’ve observed, mostly coming from the wavefolder and the filters.

Regarding my VCO comment, I would say that in general having a multi-functional module that strays from its primary function and performs as a VCO as secondary or tertiary function is something I would consider sorta non-traditional in terms of how one learns synthesis when you learn on a subtractive system. While yes any oscillating circuit can be thought of and used as tone generator if operating in the audio range, these circuits may not necessarily be optimized for audio, and therefore you may get some slight irregularities when looking at waveforms. The fact that any subtle adjustment to rise and fall on an oscillating DUSG pushes the waveform away from from the standard sine, triangle or square, means that you may be getting timbres that are slightly non standard from a more vanilla VCO. If you look at the waveforms on a scope you’ll see this right away, same with the VCFQ feeding back, those are not exactly always pure sine waves coming out, it varies a lot depending on settings of gain, q, and what output you have feeding back to the input. These subtle irregularities contribute a lot to the overall timbre of the sound, in my opinion.

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#1068

Following this with interest, and without wishing to derail the conversation, hoping you two might be able to suggest some eurorack modules that would lead one in a Serge-esqe direction.

Realistically there is no way I will ever be able to buy any actual Serge gear, I’m way too far down the eurorack rabbit hole, and totally fine with that. But I really like the sound of Serge on recordings I’ve heard, and the philosophy behind it. Thomas Ankersmit and Tom Djll are a few favorites…

I’m not looking for anything obvious like R*S or Elby or Make Noise.

I realize it’s a very open-ended question but I’m curious what you think.

Thanks!

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#1069

From what I can tell, Ankersmit’s sound is based a lot on feedback patches and audio rate modulation, cutting between different streams of sound. There’s a great video/interview from INA GRM with him:

Based on the pictures I’ve seen of his rig, he’s not using a ton of ‘standard’ modulation with DUSG or SSG, like most Serge folks do. It appears he uses the STS Soup Kitchen panel variants with his custom switching controller. I would guess he uses the NTO or Precision Oscillator for modulation, besides turning knobs.

Regarding euro modules that can get you into the Serge philosophy, there are some like the discontinued Sport Modulator, but why not just get RS or Elby? Is there any reason you want to avoid them? Some circuits are somewhat unique to Serge, like Res EQ, Wave Multipliers, and VCFQ.

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#1070

This isn’t really unique to DUSG. You can do this with Maths or any of the other myriad function generator modules that are out there. Just Friends also has this sort of thing too.

1 Like
#1071

Thanks.

It’s not that I don’t want to get into those brands, it’s just that I already know about them and was curious about what other things were in the same vein.

#1072

I have three Sport Modulators and am a huge fan of them - feel free to PM me questions. I personally think it’s the most enjoyable module I’ve ever used, which is probably the primary reason I wonder if Serge isn’t for me someday down the road. LONG down the road :slight_smile:

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#1073

I’ve been watching Wiggle Hunt but they appear to be unobtanium…

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#1074

I think this has all come up before. but IMO the biggest difference between Serge and Eurorack (even with R*S modules) is the overall ergonomics and workflow.

Yes, in Euro, as @909one says, there are myriads of options for sequencers, controllers, etc etc. This promotes a way of working and thinking about the role of a module. Even though lots of feedback patching, multi-purpose modules, and stacking (with the right cables) are possible, it is not what is incentivized by the design of the system and modules. And many many Euro modules are not really multi-purpose or patch-programmable (in the Serge sense), and definitely don’t lend themselves to that way of thinking.

In a full Serge banana system there are fewer specific “control” options provided as modules, but the workflow and ergonomics incentivize and encourage a different way of thinking… much more about using slopes and pulses as controls than about dedicated sequencers for example. More about feedback and self-patching, making the low level modules into what you need for the patch rather than getting specific modules for different functions.

And while some Serge circuits definitely have a unique sound quality, my view is that a lot of what sounds like “Serge” is more because of the workflow and ergonomics then the specific slopes of an oscillator. And while you can achieve similar workflows with Eurorack, it is definitely not the overarching design philosophy of the system and requires some workarounds to achieve what the banana systems are built for. The same is true in reverse. If you want lots of digital modules, dedicated sequencers and controllers, and really specific things (like the referenced Marbles), then Eurorack is more suited to those types of options.

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#1075

20 characters of +++++1

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#1076

Really appreciate this wonderful explanation. This confirms a lot of what I’ve been inferring from watching videos of folks patching Serge systems. I think this might have tipped me from “if I decide to get into Serge” to “when I get into Serge.”

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#1077

Glad it was helpful!

Just by way of example, this album of mine from 2019 was recorded almost entirely with a single La Bestia II panel and effects. No external sequencers or anything, just me playing and patching the panel single panel. Some of the tracks also use a bit of the Edelweiss II panel. Also all live takes, no overdubbing or major editing.

It definitely has a some of those signature “Serge” sounds, like the pinged VCFQ.

All the rhythms are coming from cross patched slopes, cv mixing, logic, and delay (my main external effect).

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#1078

In my case, the decision to use SERGE modules in eurorack format instead of the “banana” option is due to the fact that I work a lot with loopers, granular synthesis and SERGE samples prerecorded with the ER301. All these functions are covered with the ER301, along with modulations, CV’s and notes generated with TELETYPE and sequences or live keyboard with GRID and ANSIBLE.
The option of giving up all these modules is unthinkable. That’s why I chose to use RANDOM SOURCE modules for eurorack, and the truth is that I am very happy with the decision.

This was my system a few months ago …

PATCH 01 - Horns and Flutes - 030920
PATCH 01 - Horns and Flutes - 0309202262×1832 707 KB

… and this is my system now.

20201231_142547
20201231_1425474000×3000 2.83 MB

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#1079

One thing I should mention, is that I have a tendency to jump into certain paradigms, learn a bunch of about it, then sorta move on and grab the things that I feel I’d like to take away to add my bag of tricks. I’m definitely far from a purist in any of these systems, for example I’m really enjoying learning and using patch programming techniques of Serge and understanding feedback patching etc, but I’m definitely not jumping fully into the Serge approach here. I’m adding this stuff to what I’ve learned and liked through eurorack and a little Buchla. The stuff that I like making definitely floats between composed and chaotic and I like being able to push it in certain directions when needed… hence the things like Marbles etc. that are definitely not a Serge thing at all but using it in Serge environment yields interesting results. I’ve also kinda been on the search for foundation environment that really suits my workflow and I came to the epiphany that Serge is the general area which I’m liking to start from because of the characteristic timbres present and the patch programmability as mentioned above have really spawned some nice ideas. I also didn’t realize how much certain euro makers which I had been drawn to were basing their designs on Serge until learning about Serge. I’ve read through that Maths pdf countless times, thinking these techniques were semi specific to Maths only to realize this stuff has been around in Serge world since the 70’s. It’s really interesting to me to see the history of this stuff and how it translates to new makers, and it look at it through the big picture, not just one environment.
With that said, I think you could possibly make the argument that some newer euro makers are doing a more refined Serge approach that I think is a little more up to date. For example I would argue that Maths is a little easier to dial in than the DUSG and has more flexibility because of things like the exp/lin knob, the cycle button being cv-able and it’s built in attenuvertors and mixer section. Yes there’s no v/o calibration so that’s a downfall, but look at how far Joranalogue is pushing stuff.

The biggest hesitation for me going back euro is the UI of these 4u panels, that can’t be duplicated in euro. I just love the way they look and that feels unified.

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