Thanks all for the interesting comments! I may dip my toe into L C R – I like that Stereolab album and I had no idea it was mixed that way.

That thread is great, thanks! The Pitchfork article linked in that thread is also interesting.

This is a really good observation. As you and others noted, people listen to music on headphones and a pure mono mix on headphones does sound bad. I realized that I do (unintentionally) mix in stereo because the reverbs I use are all mono --> stereo. So, that helps with headphone listening because it’s not true mono. I like “reverberant mono” because it represents what we hear when we listen to mono sources in the real world.

Interestingly, I’m noticing more and more plugins that support full surround (Sonic Lab and Melda, for example). I work entirely in the box and I have a lot of possibilities for surround sound… but no speakers to play them on, so unfortunately it’s moot.

What do people think about widening techniques (beyond just panning)? Some of the fancier ones purport to stereo widen a signal in a way that preserves the original mono.

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The only stereo width adjustments I do are to M/S gain, and occasionally “monoing the bass” (high pass filter on the S signal), but all in a mastering context. I generally need to narrow as much as I need to widen, some people tend to go overboard with their stereo craziness and it can just sound phasey and naff if you are not careful.

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I think kind of romantic to me to see “wall of sound” as a viable method of production again for the reasons discussed in the OP.

I have a love hate relationship with stereo. There is something undeniably sublime about the effect of plugging in the second channel on a stereo mixer channel while monitoring, but I have poor hearing in my right ear (relative to my left) which causes confusion in a stereo setting. Sometime I have a hard time adjusting my headphones even when I can clearly separate the left and right channels.

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This is interesting, I’d never heard of it. Found this, I like it!

Here’s how I would improve this concept. The one issue I see here is the stuck placement of everything. The ear is going to get bored with this, in my opinion. I’d make an LCR mix of something, and place a distinctly mono mix in there too, which you’d want to play gain on through the mix. Basically this would allow you to bring everything into the center, as needed. There’d be some gain balancing to figure out but this would still let you have some movement of the individual elements. Maybe an LCR mix crossfading with a mono mix back and forth gradually would be the easiest way to make this work. I’d also want to switch the L and R often, so you can probably do a pretty good job with a center mix, two pan channels for L and R, and then a composite LCR-mono in the crossfade side.

I’m a big fan of proper mono mixes, incidentally — Phil Spector’s wall of sound is probably the best mono mixing ever done; you can compare Spector’s work in mono to Quincy Jones or Shadow Morton’s stereo efforts at the same time. Fun conversation.

You want to see the value of stereo, listen to a good jazz recording of subtle stereo field mic’ing, like a Monk record. Compare the same to a mono mix of it. It’s just two microphones aimed at a a piano, compared to one mic, but the air and movement you hear in the stereo recording is incredible.

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Colin Stetson records come to mind as well. This bit of an interview with Pitchfork (regarding his breakout 2011 album Judges) is a really lovely articulation of what I’m seeking (whether I’m a listener or a creator) in spatialization, width, panning, etc.:

Pitchfork: The way you recorded and mixed the record-- with lots of mics and boosting certain sounds to make it seem like there’s more going on-- is also really unorthodox, and helps to make the album sound like nothing I’ve heard before.
CS: I didn’t want to just put up a stereo mic in a room and try to get some two-dimensional snapshot of an instrument. The set-up allowed us to capture it in three dimensions so we could then spread out and reshuffle and make our own surreal representation of that performance. There are mics inside the instrument, a contact mic on my throat, and countless mics clustered around the air of the horn and throughout the room. I wanted to make something that was specific to the medium of recording. I want to make albums that are like a Murakami novel or a Terrence Malick film-- something that explicitly states its own world.

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L-C-R incorporates mono into its very core. Just pan things C. If “the stuck placement of everything” bothers you, then look elsewhere than L-C-R. Go back to regular stereo, panning things where you like. It’s just a concept, that could either help or hinder. :slight_smile:

Love stereo micing of an acoustic source/space too, matched pair of KM84s here, into TG2 pre, it’s unrivalled, IMHO. That fits L-C-R too, just pan the two mics L-L, or L-C, or C-C, or C-R, or R-R. The only thing you are NOT allowed to do is pan things “between” the L, C or R. But again, it’s just a thought experiment. If it doesn’t work empirically, then try something else.

I have to be honest and say that I’m not really a fan of mono mixes, and usually prefer the stereo mix, given everything else is equal. I grew up listening to my dad’s collection of Beatles mono vinyl, and I still prefer the 2006 stereo digital remasters.

For great Jazz recordings in stereo, check any of Rudy Van Gelder’s recordings/mixes, especially the Bossa stuff, an absolute master, and took his techniques to the grave with him…

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Laughs, it doesn’t bother me, though I guess I sounded like that, pardon. I like mixing in different styles and liked learning about it as a method of thought. I was just thinking about ways to mix around with it.

Certainly with electronic music, a flat mono mix is more applicable, as most modular output sources are mono. In that way, just considering levels inbetween sources can be its own great pattern and idea. A lot can be done with mono and volume to give things space based on how loud (close up) or distantly quiet (far away) two separate sources are in a mono mix.

You can add EQ and reverb to equate space in separate signals in mono, too.

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why do you mix in stereo (if you do) and (2) do you think that mixing in stereo still makes sense nowadays even though most people effectively listen in mono?

I mostly record and listen to music on headphones, so yes. Also, not to sound like a total stoner, but I highly recommend listening to a good stereo mix under the influence of some weed or psychedelics, if you’re open to that. Opens your ears right up. I’ve had some experiences that completely changed how I listen and make music. :woman_shrugging:

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oh man, hard agree here. Though I’d caution against Brian Eno side projects on acid. Every time I take acid and listen to Eno he fails the acid test on me in a big way. I remember getting very excited to try this out tripping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/77_Million_Paintings

About five paintings in, I thought “Man this is all bullshit, none of these are anything at all” — Same thing happened with Eno’s app, Scape: https://consequenceofsound.net/2012/09/brian-eno-announces-new-music-composition-app-scape/ — Man, about twenty minutes into that and my acid mind felt like I was listening to legos.

That said, a truly organic piece of music like Arthur Verocai is an electronic/acoustic music plant that will bloom in your head for years if you introduce some strong pot or psychedelics to it and your head:

This is a master class in stereo mixing

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Folks interested in aggressively panned mixes should check out Brazilian pop music from the classic early 1970s period. Those guys would try anything. Drum set all the way over on the left? Why not!

This track is so great I can never listen to it just once. At least four times in a row is my norm.

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100%, I find loopy electronic or pop things with clear seams often do not fair well. Meanwhile, I listened to some of David Bowie’s Blackstar a few weeks ago and felt like my head was floating in the middle of the studio it was recorded.

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I think a big trick on stereo I’ve recently realized is if everything is wide, then nothing is wide. In other words if you mix a bunch of complex sounds that all have some very nice, wide stereo reverb and stuff on them, it all just sort of blends together and doesn’t really have nice depth. I feel like introducing mono parts (they can be panned) and doing some m/s tightening (especially low mids) can really help.

In general keeping things nice and tight, dry, transient-y, mono-y up until you get to like your core groups of sounds (and then putting the squashy/bouncy compressor on the whole group) really helps stuff feel alive

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Even if you aren’t into composing in stereo (or greater) space - even if you don’t like using specialization effects - even if your music doesn’t require location cues - even if you and/or your audience listen on mostly poor stereo systems (phone speakers, computer speakers, car speakers, etc…)… There’s still a reason to be concerned with stereo and placement during mixdown:

Humans have evolved to be able to isolate sounds based on phase difference in binaural hearing. It isn’t that we locate them all that accurately, but that we can keep them distinct. It is the primary reason the “cocktail effect” works: At a (pre-Covid-19) cocktail party, despite being next to other conversations close at hand, you can listen to the person you’re chatting with. It is why speaker phone meetings are so hard: With only a mono-feed, it’s really hard to keep track of the other people when two or more speak at once. Replace that with a stereo feed (and mics and speakers) - and suddenly it works like it does in real life - the guy whispering to his neighbor doesn’t keep you from concentrating on the other person speaking.

In mixing - if you have independent voices (instruments, lines) - you can keep them clear in the listener’s ear by panning them all differently. It doesn’t have to be that much (and assumes that these are mono sources, or sources with only smaller amount of specialization). The effect is surprisingly a big bang for the buck - even if the separation isn’t all that much, and even if the playback is far from perfect. The listener won’t perceive it as “spacial” (unless you go heavy with the panning) - but everything will just sound more clear.

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Heh, great minds think alike! We both posted early 70s MPB at exactly the same time. Psych!

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Here’s a brilliant Verocai arrangement with that aggressive early 70s MPB panning:

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ROCK!! ABSOLUTELY LOVE JORGE BEN.Rock n Roll, @ElectricaNada

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I probably have a tendency to abuse my M/S more than is healthy, but I see all of this as a question of intentionality: If stereo is treated as a superficial afterthought, rather than a furtherance of creative intent, then mono is always going to seem the more pure or authentic approach.

This discussion reminds me of some notions I’ve been entertaining in regard to chipmusic: Implicit nuance in music figures in heavily when dealing with archaic PSGs, particularly in their original context. For instance, I came to love the sound of the Gameboy mostly through its dinky little mono speaker, but I eagerly indulged the occasional use of crumby headphones for its limited stereo capabilities. I couldn’t say offhand how much the Gameboy’s hard-panning capabilities figured into the compositions I most enjoyed, but it did feel like I was tapping into a rather unique musical space. Yet the bulk of that uniqueness was less attributable to any objective nuance of the Gameboy’s sound capabilities than to its quirky constraints and the intentionality behind the compositions created within those constraints (not to mention the emotionally loaded medium).

The appreciation of chipmusic is rather esoteric and by no means uniquely a result of any explicit quality of the sound (outside of its recognizability). I’ve since come to appreciate the juxtaposition between chipmusic in its purerer form (as directly played back through original hardware or emulation, particularly in the form of VGMs) and chipmusic which has undergone more deliberate processing (as opposed to a merely cosmetic treatment), to include widening or blurring the stereo field, deepening and parsing out its spectral character, clarifying its distinctive voices, or what have you.

These days, when I’m producing PCM from chip-based sources, my goal is to explicitly flesh out my impression of the original sound in its more constrained context, and if I were to limit myself to the use of mono or some merely centered spread of its original stereo character, I would be eliminating a great deal of intentionality therein.

I’ve approached a number of old lo-fi monaural session recordings of mine in similar fashion. It’s just a way of imparting my more idiosyncratic appreciation of the original in a more explicit fashion (or as well as I’m able, at least). This gets us, I think, more to the point and into implicit vs explicit spatial and dynamic character, since in a mono mix, you can only ever achieve an implicit sense of space and likely lean heavily on dynamics to achieve this; but there’s nothing preventing a stereo mix from taking either or both approaches. For my part, I almost never use dynamic panning (only one instance I can think of where I have, and that was performed on a 4track) and I’ve only lately begun to apply dynamic modualtion to PEQ in M/S, but my habit, taste, or whatnot has typically been to achieve spatial dynamics as implicit to how a mix’s spectral character plays out across the stereo field.

All this said, sometimes mono is what you want to get across or is particular to the medium you’re producing for, but I would generally reject any enjoinment to prioritize mono at the expense of stereo (either embracing or rejecting stereo as so much garnish), though obviously one ignores mono at one’s peril.

While I prefer working almost exclusively in M/S with my electronic stuff, I always eventually have to consider the panning (which, granted, can simply be handled in M/S gain-staging) and occasionally have to flip my stereo buses to balance things out for just this reason. Plus, there’s hardly any other way to go on a 4track as I’m often wont to use, so even if I end up handling the discrete tracks through M/S, it’ll typically be in parallel with the panned mix, which tends to curb at least some of my M/S abuse.

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I feel like this link belongs in this thread.

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i have never heard of this person before and the description got me to look it up and this is really, really cool. just want to highlight that. whoa

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Lovely stuff - I’ve had The Murder of Maria Marten and other such tunes on a loop recently, digging into the Albion Band records.
Thanks for the LCR tips, will be investigating further!

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