oh man, hard agree here. Though I’d caution against Brian Eno side projects on acid. Every time I take acid and listen to Eno he fails the acid test on me in a big way. I remember getting very excited to try this out tripping: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/77_Million_Paintings

About five paintings in, I thought “Man this is all bullshit, none of these are anything at all” — Same thing happened with Eno’s app, Scape: https://consequenceofsound.net/2012/09/brian-eno-announces-new-music-composition-app-scape/ — Man, about twenty minutes into that and my acid mind felt like I was listening to legos.

That said, a truly organic piece of music like Arthur Verocai is an electronic/acoustic music plant that will bloom in your head for years if you introduce some strong pot or psychedelics to it and your head:

This is a master class in stereo mixing

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Folks interested in aggressively panned mixes should check out Brazilian pop music from the classic early 1970s period. Those guys would try anything. Drum set all the way over on the left? Why not!

This track is so great I can never listen to it just once. At least four times in a row is my norm.

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100%, I find loopy electronic or pop things with clear seams often do not fair well. Meanwhile, I listened to some of David Bowie’s Blackstar a few weeks ago and felt like my head was floating in the middle of the studio it was recorded.

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I think a big trick on stereo I’ve recently realized is if everything is wide, then nothing is wide. In other words if you mix a bunch of complex sounds that all have some very nice, wide stereo reverb and stuff on them, it all just sort of blends together and doesn’t really have nice depth. I feel like introducing mono parts (they can be panned) and doing some m/s tightening (especially low mids) can really help.

In general keeping things nice and tight, dry, transient-y, mono-y up until you get to like your core groups of sounds (and then putting the squashy/bouncy compressor on the whole group) really helps stuff feel alive

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Even if you aren’t into composing in stereo (or greater) space - even if you don’t like using specialization effects - even if your music doesn’t require location cues - even if you and/or your audience listen on mostly poor stereo systems (phone speakers, computer speakers, car speakers, etc…)… There’s still a reason to be concerned with stereo and placement during mixdown:

Humans have evolved to be able to isolate sounds based on phase difference in binaural hearing. It isn’t that we locate them all that accurately, but that we can keep them distinct. It is the primary reason the “cocktail effect” works: At a (pre-Covid-19) cocktail party, despite being next to other conversations close at hand, you can listen to the person you’re chatting with. It is why speaker phone meetings are so hard: With only a mono-feed, it’s really hard to keep track of the other people when two or more speak at once. Replace that with a stereo feed (and mics and speakers) - and suddenly it works like it does in real life - the guy whispering to his neighbor doesn’t keep you from concentrating on the other person speaking.

In mixing - if you have independent voices (instruments, lines) - you can keep them clear in the listener’s ear by panning them all differently. It doesn’t have to be that much (and assumes that these are mono sources, or sources with only smaller amount of specialization). The effect is surprisingly a big bang for the buck - even if the separation isn’t all that much, and even if the playback is far from perfect. The listener won’t perceive it as “spacial” (unless you go heavy with the panning) - but everything will just sound more clear.

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Heh, great minds think alike! We both posted early 70s MPB at exactly the same time. Psych!

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Here’s a brilliant Verocai arrangement with that aggressive early 70s MPB panning:

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ROCK!! ABSOLUTELY LOVE JORGE BEN.Rock n Roll, @ElectricaNada

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I probably have a tendency to abuse my M/S more than is healthy, but I see all of this as a question of intentionality: If stereo is treated as a superficial afterthought, rather than a furtherance of creative intent, then mono is always going to seem the more pure or authentic approach.

This discussion reminds me of some notions I’ve been entertaining in regard to chipmusic: Implicit nuance in music figures in heavily when dealing with archaic PSGs, particularly in their original context. For instance, I came to love the sound of the Gameboy mostly through its dinky little mono speaker, but I eagerly indulged the occasional use of crumby headphones for its limited stereo capabilities. I couldn’t say offhand how much the Gameboy’s hard-panning capabilities figured into the compositions I most enjoyed, but it did feel like I was tapping into a rather unique musical space. Yet the bulk of that uniqueness was less attributable to any objective nuance of the Gameboy’s sound capabilities than to its quirky constraints and the intentionality behind the compositions created within those constraints (not to mention the emotionally loaded medium).

The appreciation of chipmusic is rather esoteric and by no means uniquely a result of any explicit quality of the sound (outside of its recognizability). I’ve since come to appreciate the juxtaposition between chipmusic in its purerer form (as directly played back through original hardware or emulation, particularly in the form of VGMs) and chipmusic which has undergone more deliberate processing (as opposed to a merely cosmetic treatment), to include widening or blurring the stereo field, deepening and parsing out its spectral character, clarifying its distinctive voices, or what have you.

These days, when I’m producing PCM from chip-based sources, my goal is to explicitly flesh out my impression of the original sound in its more constrained context, and if I were to limit myself to the use of mono or some merely centered spread of its original stereo character, I would be eliminating a great deal of intentionality therein.

I’ve approached a number of old lo-fi monaural session recordings of mine in similar fashion. It’s just a way of imparting my more idiosyncratic appreciation of the original in a more explicit fashion (or as well as I’m able, at least). This gets us, I think, more to the point and into implicit vs explicit spatial and dynamic character, since in a mono mix, you can only ever achieve an implicit sense of space and likely lean heavily on dynamics to achieve this; but there’s nothing preventing a stereo mix from taking either or both approaches. For my part, I almost never use dynamic panning (only one instance I can think of where I have, and that was performed on a 4track) and I’ve only lately begun to apply dynamic modualtion to PEQ in M/S, but my habit, taste, or whatnot has typically been to achieve spatial dynamics as implicit to how a mix’s spectral character plays out across the stereo field.

All this said, sometimes mono is what you want to get across or is particular to the medium you’re producing for, but I would generally reject any enjoinment to prioritize mono at the expense of stereo (either embracing or rejecting stereo as so much garnish), though obviously one ignores mono at one’s peril.

While I prefer working almost exclusively in M/S with my electronic stuff, I always eventually have to consider the panning (which, granted, can simply be handled in M/S gain-staging) and occasionally have to flip my stereo buses to balance things out for just this reason. Plus, there’s hardly any other way to go on a 4track as I’m often wont to use, so even if I end up handling the discrete tracks through M/S, it’ll typically be in parallel with the panned mix, which tends to curb at least some of my M/S abuse.

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I feel like this link belongs in this thread.

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i have never heard of this person before and the description got me to look it up and this is really, really cool. just want to highlight that. whoa

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Lovely stuff - I’ve had The Murder of Maria Marten and other such tunes on a loop recently, digging into the Albion Band records.
Thanks for the LCR tips, will be investigating further!

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Interesting observation about narrowing the width of reverbs etc, will give that a try.
I intuitively tend to set my reverbs 100% wide when mixing, although obviously on stereo sources ie the glue reverb for the entire stereo mix rather than mono sources. That certainly creates discrepancies when aiming for mono compatibility, this might help in that regard.

I’d recommend trying a reverb that preserves panning info, and allows you to affect width of early reflections, and where they are not just a simple delay tap.

Such as Relab VSR S24 or Exponential (now Izotope) Nimbus.

VSR will let you change start/end, room model type, and front/back.

I find these work best for stereo sources and full mixes. On some reverbs you can choose more engines and the way they are mixed to achieve different effects, such as mono split option on LX480 - which has dense ER cluster option in the Random Hall HD addition.

Eventide SP2016 also works well for program material just because of position control.

Valhalla Plate Radium and Lithium models are also cool for chamber-like mixing of inputs.

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Thanks, will have a look at your suggestions. I almost exclusively use TAL Plate 4, which is a fantastic sounding reverb considering it’s free, but not sure whether it preserves panning info. I don’t really have any complaints, it works and blends very well with my sound/mixes but always interested to hear of alternative tools/techniques.

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Yeah, I find that a lot of virtual instruments spray info all over the panning field (eg Sonic Lab Cosmosf, which is a mind-blowing instrument but also goes HARD on pan effects if you aren’t careful). I put Ableton’s Utility on most things to narrow the stereo field because otherwise things get too wild. I also like Utility because it has an option to mono all bass information below a set frequency.

Could you expand on this? I’m interested to learn more. The only reverbs I use are Valhalla reverbs and I thought that they all preserved stereo info, but the Valhalla Plate page mentions those two models exclusively as pan-preserving and I don’t know what that means (I guess the other models do something different to the stereo image?).

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The Valhalla algorithms within each plugin are all different, many are Mono (Sum) In - Stereo Out, I seem to remember, and you need to read the documentation to find out which are which, you’d be looking for the Stereo In - Stereo Out to preserve stereo info.

Yes, Reaper also has great stereo panning options, it’s nice to be able to easily pan a pair of stereo tracks so that, for example, one acoustic strummed is L-C and the double tracked version is C-R. You keep the “stereo-ness” of each take, but can pan them so as to keep them distinct etc. For “mono-ing the bass” I love the elliptical filter on TDR Slick EQ M.

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Not sure if it’s buried in all the good stuff above, but I’ve taken to panning a mono source to one side and sending a mono reverb of that source to the other. Like the moroder delay, but reverb! :sweat_smile:

More seriously though; you can get into loads of trouble with phase when messing with stereo sources and/or effects; I’m pretty much keeping a multiband correlometer on the mix bus so I can always see how far I’m pressing. All fun and games until you need to press a vinyl…

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I like panned delays. I just listen to everything in mono. And one speaker off is useful to hear it properly, without the speakers bouncing off each other. You can even pan things while in mono, to find position where it pops out a bit.

There are early 50s orchestral recordings in mono (like at Kingsway Hall) that have better sense of depth than stereo multi-miked 70s era recordings, simply due to mic positioning and no phase issues.

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I had the privilege of seeing Drew McDowall perform Time Machines in Australia twice a few years ago. I listened to this record again for the first time in a little while last night, and with fresh ears came some new perspectives. The stereo processing and panning (and FM) is really what makes this record. I think it’s what enables you to just kind of drift off to it.

He was doing all this live with a small eurorack system (which he let me look at and take a few snaps), but I’ve sadly lost the photos and can’t remember exactly what he was using (two 104hp skiffs and a couple of 0-coasts, from memory, but these wouldn’t have been around when Coil released the album).

This album simply wouldn’t exist or have the effect it does without the stereo processing and panning, IMO.

I’m relatively new around here, so I’m not sure if this one has been brought up previously, but here we go:

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