The current state of grid sound

[ether]

thanks @ingMob

yep - 16 x 8 or 8 x 16. Or even 8x8, 16x16, etc.

additional resolution can come from multi taps. e.g. tap a button once for .25 brightness / level increase, twice for .5, three for .75, 4 for full. or something like that.

and - i’m on a roll here - an arc (or an arc mini!) provides even higher res control.

for example, you’re setting level of a single “channel” by pressing buttons on the 128, but the arc could automatically follow the channel the grid is on, and allow super fine adjustments (and level display) of the currently selected (e.g. last pressed button).

[ether]

also:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=74899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=325

the ProModular MIIIIX is finally near

[oscillateur]

In eurorack format, the best thing that should arrive at some point is the Escalation Dominance from The Harvestman (I asked Scott about it in june at the Tokyo modular fest, it’s still being worked on). 6 channels, sliders for volume, pan and fx send per channel + one assignable cv input per channel + some other cool tricks (internal AD envelope, etc.). That’s the one I’m waiting for.

Outside euro, there are tons of small/cheap mixers with 4 to 6 channels that are typically enough for a live situation.

The main things that could be improved compared to these in my opinion are :

• ditch the preamps (if everything is line level they’re an unnecessary expense and waste of space)
• maybe use minijack inputs to keep it small (though that could mean using adapters on the other end of the cable for some things)
• more importantly : have more aux sends for each channel. With aux returns too but still having the option to plug back into another channel. Having a 6 channels mixer with 3 or 4 aux sends (each with a pre/post fader button) for example would basically create a sort of hybrid matrix mixer that could be very useful.
• I rarely use EQ on live mixers, I would leave that out.

So for me an interesting small live mixer would have something like 4-6 channels with for each channel : volume control, pan, 3-4 aux sends. And some aux returns/basic inputs with only a volume control. Plus a main volume, headphones output, headphones volume. That would be super flexible, but probably not for everybody…

[kisielk]

Having gigged using a launchpad as a mixer, I can say that 8 step resolution at gig volumes is very noticeable. I’m sure you could use the limitation creatively, but I’d wince every time I “faded” a channel out! The main reason that I swapped to an APC for ableton duties live.

It wouldn’t have to jump right to the target, could be a timed fade with maybe a double tap or something to make it happen right away.

[Simeon]

Of course you could have it like beams is now, but for me the lack of immediacy is another compromise. Thinking about this a bit more it feels to me like there’s a difference between a control that’s directly linked (A fader that’s mechanism directly affects the flow of audio) and a control that affects something else that affects the signal. It feels… emotionally(?) different to me.

[Test2]

the Aleph IO is pretty great, will definitely continue to explore it’s mixing capabilities in coming versions of PRGM.

[randy]

DJ mixers are “performance mixers” in a sense, but I can imagine this focus on more general electronic mixing leading to new and very useful ideas.

Toggle switches, toggle pushbuttons or very small faders could all be good controls for performing effects sends. I think a knob is a bad control for dubstyle effects performance but of course people make it work well in spite of that.

Also, putting effects over each channel, hands get in the way of each other a lot. What about left hand = effects, right hand = volumes and EQ? or vice versa.

One very nice thing about knobs is they make sense from either direction.

I guess the Mackie 1202 is the best example of a Volksmixer for performance, especially considering its use as no-input instrument. Remember how its back panel could be flipped around for different configurations? A useful idea, maybe.

[spacelordmother]

Though stuck with a DAW/Max – I have used the monome app “Insanity” numerous times as a really flexible Ableton mixer. Regarding resolution you’re still stuck, but there’s an option to hold down a button and inc/dec value by a set fine amount, and you can also set the time for value fades – makes for great controllable slow swells.

[wednesdayayay]

In eurorack format, the best thing that should arrive at some point is the Escalation Dominance from The Harvestman (I asked Scott about it in june at the Tokyo modular fest, it’s still being worked on). 6 channels, sliders for volume, pan and fx send per channel + one assignable cv input per channel + some other cool tricks (internal AD envelope, etc.). That’s the one I’m waiting for.

Outside euro, there are tons of small/cheap mixers with 4 to 6 channels that are typically enough for a live situation.

The main things that could be improved compared to these in my opinion are :

• ditch the preamps (if everything is line level they’re an unnecessary expense and waste of space)
• maybe use minijack inputs to keep it small (though that could mean using adapters on the other end of the cable for some things)
• more importantly : have more aux sends for each channel. With aux returns too but still having the option to plug back into another channel. Having a 6 channels mixer with 3 or 4 aux sends (each with a pre/post fader button) for example would basically create a sort of hybrid matrix mixer that could be very useful.
• I rarely use EQ on live mixers, I would leave that out.

So for me an interesting small live mixer would have something like 4-6 channels with for each channel : volume control, pan, 3-4 aux sends. And some aux returns/basic inputs with only a volume control. Plus a main volume, headphones output, headphones volume. That would be super flexible, but probably not for everybody…

this sounds the best to me so far it gets opens up a lot of space by getting rid of things usually taken care of somewhere else

mono hybrid matrix mixer with panning
although I’d love to see quadrophonic rather than stereo on the channels
perhaps integrating joysticks where they could control the panning and level of the channel (if just regular stereo)

[s_hamann]

I’ve ranted for years at anyone who would listen about the lack of a proper mixer for tabletop electronics. My preference aligns a lot with what @oscillateur describes. I’d start by looking at a standard 6-8 input mixer and slash out all the crap I don’t need:

• no RCA jacks (can’t be said enough)
• drop the EQ drop the mic inputs and preamps (a separate for anyone who might need a mic input isn’t that much trouble)
• drop inserts (I use them all the time recording, but I never have live)
• I think I’d even drop the master fader.

The stuff the I find I need the most is lots of outputs, free reign over routing, the option of mono or stereo inputs and outputs, mute buttons on every channel. Preferably jacks at the back, rather than on the face, but I guess that might be a limit of space.

I drew up this mock-up a few weeks ago (half-assed, cobbled together pieces of real mixers) of a 6-stereo-channel mixer, with 6 stereo outputs and not a lot else so you can use any channel as a send/return, easily create feedback paths, and pick a channel for your master output should you need one. I suppose it might need a headphone output somewhere. I started thinking recently about an alternative interface that just used encoders with channels selectable to reduce controls (mock-up also half-assed, sorry, done in mspaint).

[ether]

after a lot of internal debate i’ve finally arrived at my ideal (for now) portable gigging setup : 12U of modular (including various monome modules), a 128, and an octatrack

i tried an aleph, but didn’t gel with it

i tried computers, but lost all inspiration

i tried double the amount of euro, but couldn’t carry it

i tried various midi controllers, but hate the plasticyness

etc, etc.

the octatrack was a win for several reasons:

it can be the mixer (as long as I stick to 4 ins, which is fine for me)
it can be the master sequencer
it can be an audio backing track playback device : super important for me
its a very capable machine in its own right
its got a lot of performance oriented features that are great (scenes and the fader for example)
its super portable
its black!
etc.

i’d love to see a monome inspired mixer one day, but for now i’m set

time to make music and not futz around with gear!

(that’s my “studio b” case - teletype arriving this week!)

[scanner_darkly]

^ i’ve just recently arrived at a very similar configuration, 104hp 12U + octatrack + machinedrum + mackie 802vlz4 mixer which i mostly picked for it’s slimmer profile but yeah, there are several things about it that are not ideal for my setup. thought about using the octa as the main mixer but decided i really prefer the immediacy of having an actual mixer.

nice setup btw! how are you sequencing with octa? don’t see any midi2cv modules… i’ve got hexinverter midi2cv specifically so that i could sequence from octa, just to try out the workflow - plocks will also be really handy with CVs. thinking if this works well then might upgrade to yarns or vermona.

[ether]

@scanner_darkly for now i’m actually not midi sequencing from the ot, though i probably will eventually.

the “plan” - as far as I have one - is to have two main “modes” i shift between :

1. beats, where I have the ot and the euro sync’d up (more on that below) and doing dark tech kind of stuff, with each doing minimal mostly non-melodic grooves and hits, with no midi sequencing.

2. ambient-ish euro jamming over ot backing tracks. no sync, just nice drones streaming from the cf card on the ot, allowing me to go all free jazz bonkers on the modular.

not shown in the pic above is a Hinton Gearbox, which takes mid clock from the ot, and gives me triggers at various musical divisions to drive the modular (actually works in reverse too, so the modular can be master to the ot’s slave).

for now that’s all i want to do, until i’ve mastered the ot, which will take a while!

my tt also arrives today, which i’m planning on using as one of the main melodic tools i think.

long term i probably see a yarns in my future, in a separate small ‘sync box’ with the hinton module.

i would love a high quality external mixer and some excellent effects, but i’m soooooo sick of lugging gear around. too many heavy guitar amps in my past.

[drehleierguy]

I’ve always been a big fan of matrix mixers, especially since mounting versions of David Tudor’s Rainforest series. Commercial mixers rarely did what I needed them to do. One of my first matrix mixers was a passive 6X6 with momentary cut buttons:

One of the more recent (and ridiculous) projects was an active 16X16 with ~10X pre-amps on the inputs:

Haven’t quite, um, finished that one…

I’m doing less and less of the the analog ‘plug everything into everything else’ sort of live electronics these days. Mostly focusing on live hurdy gurdy and, now that I’m more comfortable with Max/msp at last, more in-the-box electronics.

I’m always up for another go at a Rainforest installation, however!

Great ideas and inspiration from you all - thanks for taking the time to contribute. I wish that I had more to pitch in at the moment.

All the best,

ben

[shellfritsch]

for me it’s psychically better to use a walkman with a cassette, fed into a mixer.

it’s big and heavy, but i love my tascam 424 mkIII. multitrack cassette playback and ample inputs with effects sends works really nicely in a live setup.

i’ve seen someone record a pulse to one tape track and use that to keep hardware in sync… been meaning to try it myself.

[accountboy]

of course what this means is that i may be designing a weirdly semi-specialized analog mixer in the medium-term future.

Isms brought me (back) here

[spqr6510]

obsession (isms) bring me here dailly

[bobbcorr]

“studio b” case

Love your setup - if you have a modulargrid link, and hopefully a link to the case manufacturer, I’d be very grateful!

[myecholalia]

That’s an Amalgamod case. I know, because I’ve got one
There are threads on the muffwiggler forum about it. And amalgamod.com has a contact form, even if the site hasn’t been updated with content last time I looked.

[gingity]

I did a quick search and can’t seem to find anything about a grid 128 controlled eurorack switch matrix?

There are many posts about elaborate mixers, but I find there are already many mixers out there. There aren’t however (from what I’ve found) many musically controllable switch matrices. They’re also all huge. The WMD SSM is probably the most useful one (and compact to boot), esp w the expander. But it still only has 4x4.

I feel like somebody could very quickly put together a simple 8x8 (16 jacks total) switch matrix where every jack is routable to any another jack (or combination of jacks) - all of this being controlled by a grid. The control interfacing on the grid probably would need a bit of finessing, maybe some multi-colour LED’s on the actual module to denote connections (but probably not even necessary).

Then adding one more jack for cv control between presets routing scenes/“keyframes” (similar to wmd ssm or mutables frames) would take it into super useful territory.

Maybe it’s just me, but 4x4 isn’t quite enough but 8x8 could built enough interesting routing for a long extended diverse set (without extensive repatching). I can’t waste like 30+ hp on a these massive matrix modules if I’m trying to condense everything into a flight case.

Perhaps this can’t be done technically in a small space though.

Final note… it would be incredible if this could be done with op-amps and some sort of slew/morphing between routings heh but alas I get ahead of myself.