This is very interesting to me. Gonna come back and check it out later when I have more time.

For what it’s worth there is some related discussion around distributed web-esque technologies in an older thread: Building the world you want to live in.

I continue to see investment in things like Secure Scuttlebutt and ipfs. I ran a publicly accessible scuttlebutt node for a few months while I was exploring the system but in the end I found navigating the “gossip” content too confusing for my wee brain.

I’ve long wondered about the possibilities for decentralized collaboration platforms focused on creative endeavors and how flexible devices like norns could participate in that space.

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IndieWeb is also a very interesting concept. One of the main idea is to own your content. For example, I have set a POSSE (Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere) publishing model.
I post my content on my website and then it’s automatically published on other platforms (Mastodon, Twitter, etc.). It means that if in the future, Twitter shut down for X reason, I do not lose all my contents/tweets.

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I’ve just signed in under aleatoric forest. Interested to explore decentralised communities.
EDIT: Hope is ok!

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I didn’t know about all of this, being a web developer myself I’m VERY EXCITED about this stuff! I’m checking it all out now, new worlds opening, thanks! Any links to interesting music projects on there that are up and running already?

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Absolutely!

Nice, thanks! IPFS felt really promising too but it felt like it could have really benefited from a beaker browser type project. (I guess beaker did support IPFS at first but they have since removed it for some reason.) The combination of beaker being an editor & host platform so you can make a new dat site right from the browser, and dat supporting stable URLs that can be mapped to normal DNS TXT records for human-readable URLs is pretty great too.

Scuttlebutt sounds interesting!

I haven’t come across a lot but p2p distribution seems like a great platform for netlabels.

I’m really curious about funkwhale which seems like a self-hosted spotify-type platform?

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Very interesting. I’m trying to set one up as we speak :smiling_imp:

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On a more lower level, cjdns and Tahoe-LAFS might be worth a look.

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I’ve been following and using Ethereum and IPFS for a good while, now. The most interesting project I’ve come across using both is a social blogging platform called Akasha, and I was pretty active on there for a time. I’ve also put some music up on Ujo and messed around a bit with ENS as well as resolving DNS to IPFS-hosted content.

This stuff is incredibly exciting, but it seems I’m forever waiting for the ecosystems to mature.

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Yeah, being a pioneer can be a very lonely experience. I’m always keen but often distracted by boredom :smile:

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Did funkwhale seem interesting / useful? I still haven’t gotten around to playing with it!

It certainly looks great, but I have quickly been pulled in a maelstrom of technical difficulties and my funkwhale server hasn’t been set up yet. It’s a bit different development environment I’m used to so I haven’t even been able to test it locally, but I’m still on it! I need to set up my router to accept outside connections and so forth. Really looking forward to it, especially because I think many of us here would probably been keen to populate a platform like this.

I’ve found a couple nice sound art / music oriented mastodon instances since getting back into it.

  • post.lurk.org is one of the projects of the venerated LURK community
  • I don’t know much about SoNoMu but it’s great and I follow several folks there

I love the neighborhood / island nature of mastodon’s distributed instances but it also makes it a bit of a challenge to explore the space.

Can anyone point to more sound art / computer music / etc etc oriented instances?

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So I don’t fully know what to make of it, yet, but this is fairly new:

I imagine it will make more sense with the next version of Akasha, which I eagerly await. In any case, I for one have long considered Ethereum and IPFS’s most promising use-cases to be as better means of publishing in any context, along with more meaningful interaction around published content (to include better and more transparent aggregation on all levels).

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This just popped up in the IPFS newsletter:

I figured the admins here might be interested.

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Two problems – how to solve them within distributed frameworks?

First – ephemerality and loss of history. Sites come and go. Sometimes entire hosting platforms, such as YahooGroups, go kaput and delete 20 years worth of content. Internet archival is spotty or non-existent (archive.org generally doesn’t have much, even less so with contemporary social technologies). Google Groups (Usenet) search is broken and they don’t really care, plus the archives are again incomplete. And 2000’s era stuff is just completely gone.

As such, communities are constantly unaware of their own histories. Discussion never really takes off because there’s a constant starting from zero. Terminologies get reinvented but sometimes in reductive ways. Sometimes communities merge, and what had been defined before now needs to be reworked from scratch. Will this reworking be as careful as what went before?

Terminology – language itself – whether in words or images, whatever repeats or persists – is probably the most effective encoding of ‘history’ that actually survives, since the discussion that gave birth to this language has disappeared. But terminology can be unstable. Suddenly several people start using a new term, as if it had always been there. You can pretty much figure it out from context but then there’s a game of tracking down the tumblr post in which it was first defined. But it’s not always on tumblr, not always easily found…

Despite semi-consistent terminology, then, there’s a constant and pervading sense of amnesia.

This leads to the second problem – unboundedness, the sense that all the real discussion is taking place ‘elsewhere’, that one has missed what is most essential.

After all, what is ‘the community’? Certainly not a specific site or a technology.

In most cases we’re talking something with a long history, albeit unrecorded – a loose aggregation of private, in-person groups, snail-mail, mail-art, zines (1980’s), listservs, Usenet (1990’s), forums, LiveJournal (2000’s), Twitter, Tumblr, Mastodon, Discord, Telegram (2010’s). Plus in-person or online conventions; local meetups/Zooms.

Perhaps that’s the real ‘distributed web’, something that’s distributed across sites, platforms and even media – and only loosely connected, either across these media or across time. Perhaps this is the true meaning of ‘virtuality’ – not merely (or even) that something is in digital form.

Unboundedness is a strength because if one site or technology or medium disappears or becomes unusable people will flock to another. It’s also a strength because we can each define our own relations with respect to ‘the community’ – they’re not mediated by some central authority.

The problem with unboundedness is the sense one is always missing ‘the conversation’. The sense of missing out is particularly acute in the case of ‘drama’. Cryptic messages appear on a few main sites, only indicating that there is conflict between two parties without any indication of the issue – and also that some major event is now in jeopardy. There’s always a sense that some really meaningful discussion happened on one of the Discords that you didn’t bother to join – or perhaps on one of the private and unlisted ones. And that it was a painful discussion and thus it’s not appropriate to do more than accept the cryptic message at face value, without really understanding it, let alone being able to help.

Hence, ‘the conversation’ itself is always obscure. It’s esoteric but not for the right reasons. Everyone thinks simply that it happened elsewhere, when in reality nothing took place. Such obscurity feeds drama and power games. Which leads again to ephemerality and erasure of history – also more unboundedness, more proliferation of sites.

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It is indeed a pity that so much knowlege i getting lost, on the other hand I do welcome a certain degree of ephemerality with discussion groups. Most knowledge that is or was present there is not easily searchable, there’s a lot of noise mixed in with the signal and often the information can be incomplete, if you don’t take the time to dive into the context. Also, I don’t know if I like things staying online forever. Many things on the internet should have an expiration date.

So what would be needed – more than things being kept online as they are – is a constant and active archival work, where information is selected, compacted, organized and integrated and combined and put in a place where it is easily searchable and usable.
But that’s a lot of work.

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I agree that there’s a positive side to ephemerality – explicit archival is often too much like surveillance, and would discourage open and honest discussion.

On the other hand lack of deep memory is debilitating. It’s not just a matter of knowledge building upon knowledge (the progressive view). It’s a matter of original knowledge dissipating or being lost. The vast reservoir of skills and knowhow which enables one to act freely and spontaneously often just isn’t there. This lack also prevents open discussion, because the conditions of the possibility of discussion have failed.

This is why I’m trying to take a system-level view and focus on implicit means of archival, such as iterability, which do not require centralization and surveillance. Terminology is an obvious example, because the original author is irrelevant. It simply propagates and makes itself available. Terminological signs aren’t restricted to words: images and ‘memes’ definitely count, (while the latter has its own problems). The question of an explicit or ‘definitional’ meaning is irrelevant, what counts is that the sign is meaningfully passed around.

But sometimes a larger context is needed for the signs, and this is where current efforts and technologies fall short. Which is to say, there’s really not much of a tradition of commentary. Retweets or tumblr shares are a kind of commentary but far too local and short-term. Microblogging is particularly hostile to commentary because it discourages genuine engagement in favor of hearsay (and this is where the mere ‘passing around’ of memes is most problematic). Usually commentary implies a collection of canonical texts, which are themselves iterated in the process (I’m thinking of folk tales, mythology, epic poetry, religious texts…) Commentaries themselves can also become canonical, where you have commentaries upon commentaries.

So the “constant and active archival work” is indeed difficult, but can become more distributed and automatic if there are better means of commentary, in which canonization simply happens on its own without too much conscious effort, but at a deeper level than hearsay. Ted Nelson’s ideas perhaps relate to this. As is, we have hyperlinks. But links or improved methods of ‘transclusion’ are mere technological solutions that do not apply across closed spaces, and such closures are necessary to protect groups from surveillance, something which is not a new development but goes back to Marconi. For now, most of the really successful canonization efforts are curated by individuals. This is indeed “a lot of work”. But if they’re not spontaneously repeated at a deep level of engagement these efforts will fail.

Anyway, this is progress – I think we’ve at least reduced the vast problem of deep cultural memory to problems of iterability, commentary, and canonization.

The question is much more than a technological one. But it’s an interesting problem, what technologies would better facilitate these distributed, anti-surveillance approaches to memory and thus lessen the hard work associated with explicit curation?

Semi-randomly grabbing some bits from the convo over at https://llllllll.co/t/email-newsletters-low-tech-decentralized-web/34878/81so we can stop continue the discussion here.

We last left our heroes discussing vulnerability and identity. The saga continues…

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So Ujo is a dead project, apparently, but Audius seems to be rising in its place. Apparently it’s already decentralized and recently began running on the Ethereum main-net and also relies upon IPFS for content hosting.

It already seems to be more developed than Ujo ever became, but with a different angle of approach, which is basically like SoundCloud meets Spotify. Being already decentralized, opensource, allowing sign-ups without an Ethereum wallet, and enabling lossless audio upload are a few ways it’s already ahead of Ujo, and, by virtue of the former two, it should prove more or less a permanent platform (which Ujo never achieved, hence how it is now considered to be shuttered).

Now, I was actually quite enthusiastic about Ujo, and Audius should eventually offer sales, digital collectibles, and so on, which is something Ujo did manage to achieve and in interesting ways; as such, I am hoping Audius will adopt some aspects of its predecessor, like setting automatic division if sales revenue between collaborators through smart contracts.

One thing both platforms lack is a full-fledged social layer (comments mainly, though there are at least some basic forms of aggregation), which is not a trivial matter in this manner and level of decentralization. I suspect one possible route of implementation could be through Ethereum World.

Anyway, this is one thing I’ve been really keen to see in the distributed/decentralized space, and though I joined up a little while ago, it recently took me by surprise in just how much ground has already been covered. I still have to give the white paper a good look, but so far it seems fairly solid here at the ground floor.

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