#21

If you do something a lot, it’s difficult not to get good at it. Talentlessness usually implies laziness.

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#22

I think that the issue for me is that somebody describing themselves as talentless or without mastery must have very clear and strong ideas about what it would be like to be talented or have mastery over something, and that undisclosed clarity is interesting to me. To all who have described themselves as talentless I would ask the question: what does it mean to you to have talent and why do you think that?

I do understand the importance that us moderns place on being suspicious of terms such as talent, mastery, genius, good, bad, beauty, etc., but for me the words “socially constructed” often sound the death knell for any imaginative, creative engagement with the world that we find ourselves in.

In my life I have had many experiences of meeting people and becoming aware of their particular talents. As a teacher I have seen it time and time again. I have taught many children that I have identified as being talented in this or that aspect of music, but this does not always mean that that child will go on to put in the work to fully realise that talent, or that music will even become an important part of that child’s life going forward. I have especially strong memories about one pupil on the cusp of adolescence whose musical ability was quite astounding despite his parents saying that he did not really practice much and despite the pupil himself seemingly being not too bothered about music! It’s easier and more understandable when a talent is accompanied by enthusiasm, but strangely it’s not always the case.

All this is to say that I believe that talent, meaning some sort natural ability somewhat independent of being taught, exists…and not just for a chosen few, but for all.

It seems to me that the trick, or the difficulty, is discovering exactly where that talent lies. Your particular talent may not be the one that you desire, your wish, or dream, it may be more mundane than those things, but talent there most certainly is! Being honest and open to ones self and ones particular strengths to correctly identify the spot where ones talent lies is a tricky business. Even more difficult is having enough love of yourself to declare that.

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#23

I agree with first sentence but not necessarily with the second one. All I’m saying is that talent shouldn’t be a term used to beat oneself up with! Although done in good humour, I’m not sure that anyone offhandedly describing themselves as talentless is ever a good thing because they are either knowingly or unknowingly reinforcing a particular view of what talent is and saying that it is something that they are not! It is reinforcing a negative and ignoring, or not bothering to look for, a positive about themselves.

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#24

I think that varies a lot. I played a lot of FPS games for a while (hundreds, if not thousands of hours) and I never really improved past a certain, not-so-great level. I think I’ve pretty much plateaued in rally racing games too, after hundreds of hours each in several different games and actively playing multiple times per week. I’m solidly below average in online standings.

In the taiko group I was in, there was one particular veteran performer whose basic sense of rhythm was always a bit rough and whose solos often collapsed into random nonsense… but he was good with the choreography, enthusiasm, and had a real knack for teaching kids.

My own rhythm was solid and I really enjoyed soloing, but ugh my ability to follow any sort of choreography is horrid. My brain just sort of shuts down and not distinguish left foot from right foot. That never got better, not when I took judo as a kid, aikido in the 90s, trying to follow any sort of exercise videos, or taiko. I also have a poor sense of navigational direction, so that’s probably related – I used to make wrong turns and get lost all the time before GPS, and I’d have no sense of which roads were east/west and which were north/south.

I can’t sing (and my humming and whistling aren’t much better). When I can’t hit a note, I can’t even figure out if I’m flat or sharp or where I went wrong. It’s not the actual pitch perception, it’s something in my brain that just says “nope, not dealing with this!” and then the moment is gone and the song has fallen apart. And yet I’m not too bad noodling on a fretless bass, which you’d think would involve the same skill set. And I used to be relatively good on the violin when I was a kid (but didn’t keep up with it and lost the muscle memory). I haven’t taken any formal voice lessons or anything, but I’m 48, it’s not like I haven’t had adequate time to try singing in the car along with the radio or whatever.

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#25

Talent is a value judgement given by others.

There can be no evaluation of talent without judgement from others whether that’s perceived judgement or actual judgement.

To declare oneself to be talentless and keeping ones creative output to one’s self relieves one from the burden of judgement.

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#26

Fair points. Mere repetition is not always enough. Sometimes it also requires focused practice on the sticking points to improve. I personally define talent as natural aptitude and capacity for a given task. But everyone, regardless of talent, can improve.

I have no natural aptitude for singing, and I also struggled a lot with intonation like you have. It took me two years of focused practice (which I didn’t start until my late 50s), but after putting in the work my intonation became flawless. I’m still not a great singer, but now I am in tune. Anyone could do the same. Everyone can become a good singer or instrumentalist, given the desire and the time and the focus.

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#27

I’m adopting this a mantra

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#28

Thank you for sharing this!

#29

i recently realized that a drive towards improvement was embedded into every activity i did. and it isn’t working for me anymore.

i have been rock climbing for a few years now and am worse than i used to be, which was also not very good. i was really frustrated. but i’m okay with it now. i really enjoy scrambling and easy climbing. so i’m mostly going to do that.

thanks for your post!

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#30

I’m choosing to interpret ‘Talentlessness’ in this thread as a kind of play and exploration that is separate from technical skill with an instrument. I don’t think these things are mutually exclusive. You can be really good at playing an instrument but choose ‘Talentlessness’. I think part of what we’re talking about is driving for improvement and increasing virtuosity vs. giving up control and letting things happen.

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#31

That’s cool, but then why isn’t the thread called “The Joys of Play”? It seems unnecessary to me to use such a complicated and negatively loaded term as “talentlessness” when we could be saying “play” instead.

#32

I can only comment on my choices. :man_shrugging:

#33

I have been enjoying playing guitars despite being aware of my lack of talent for about 45 years. I have always joked that I will gladly refund ticket price to anyone having a complaint. About a year ago, i started exploring alternative tunings.
This has really been a boost to my enthusiasm! Open tunings make it possible for me to play songs that I thought were beyond my ability.

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#34

I hope that my comments aren’t coming off as aggressive or anything, I am just genuinely really interested in the topic and maybe my rushed replies are coming off as impolite, which I am really not intending! Sorry if that is the case. I just find it interesting the way that creative people choose to talk about what they do.

Talent seems to me to be exactly that thing in each of us that has precisely nothing to do with improvement narratives and suchlike. I thought the whole point of talent is that it is something like an innate ability, that particular something that a person does particularly well due to their singular nature, whether they work at it or not. So if I am working on that assumption you can see how I could react in confusion and dismay at a whole thread of people calling themselves talentless!

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#35

I’d consider a talent to be any skill you have significantly beyond what an “average person” might. One might also say that you are talented if you are in the “top 10%” of the pool of people considering themselves to have that skill. I am generally opposed to the concept of talent being thought of as innate as it encourages a fixed mindset: a belief that you either have it or you don’t. Those with a growth mindset believe you acquire talent through work; this is what I believe to be true.

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#36

listening to the heart and living by its joy is the greatest talent of all
(sounds like you got that talent in spades, @antiphon) Cheers :hugs:

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#37

Cool, so we are working with slightly different definitions. But I want to stress that my even though I believe in innate abilities my position is nowhere near as blunt and unsubtle as saying you either have it or you don’t. I don’t believe that for a second. But I do wholeheartedly believe that there are particular areas where each person has ability that might not have anything to do with being taught or having worked at it, and I believe this because of my experience teaching children. If I can see that this child has a particular flair for rhythm, that child a certain dexterity, and another a sensitivity to pitch, it doesn’t then follow that I believe that is all they will ever be good at or that each won’t be able to develop the skills of the other.

And let me stress that I am not talking about savant types, I’m talking about the particular talents that I see in every child that I teach. In the personal history of an 8 year old child with no previous musical experience from an unmusical family there is no reason that I can see why they would have this or that particular strength, but I can’t convince myself that they don’t have these skills just to fit into a philosophical box that is more convenient for current dominant modes of modern thinking! I honestly don’t think that it follows from this that I don’t believe that anyone can acquire these skills with work, or conversely that a talent treated with laziness is useless…if I believed these things then why would I teach at all? I believe 100% in putting the work in, and that anybody can achieve most of what they want (or something like it, or something unexpected and perhaps better than they wanted!) with clear goals and hard work, but I also believe that each of us has areas that we are particularly strong in, and it is that that I am calling talent.

The only thing that I am cheerleading for in this thread is that each person could instead of calling themselves talentless take the time to find out what the particular area is where they feel especially comfortable and easy, and then to take that as a starting point or foundation for the continuation of the work that they do. To me that seems a far more useful and positive an outlook than calling yourself talentless.

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#38

The whole “growth mindset” thing feels like a bit of a flawed idea as well to me. It does sound too much like “if Elon Musk can do it, you can do it to, you just need to work harder”. It sounds very much like something you’d say to an underpaid gig economy worker to keep them going, doesn’t it?

As usual, just because A is wrong, it doesn’t mean the polar opposite of A is necessarily right. Most of the time A is wrong just because it’s an incomplete picture of a much more complex phenomen, which can’t just be boiled down to one statement. In this case A is not wrong but merely inaccurate.
So saying that everything is either something you can do or not based on innate abilities, is of course highly inaccurate. This doesn’t mean there aren’t such things as innate abilities and that these do not influence how your life will develop, the choices you will make and the possibilities to which life will expose you or not. Of course this also doesn’t mean that you don’t have to work hard.

Somebody once said this (sorry I can’t remember who): when you achieve something over time there’s basically three main factors at play: inborn abilities and family, luck and working hard.
You usually need at least 2 of these to achieve something.
Apart from Inborn abilities how you grow up and where can have a big impact, being born rich can help a lot with certain careers it seems. Luck could play a big role, but you can only be lucky if you work on exposing yourself to luck :slight_smile:

If we consider somebody talented it’s sometimes because they have achieved something in music. It may be because they made a big breakthrough, or maybe just because they are being praised by many people.
In reality they might not be much more talented than we are, maybe they just were a bit more lucky, or they had a rich family, happened to be into a style of music that in/was fashionable or they were just more socially apt. Or maybe they really just worked harder to get there. Who knows. Fact is, it can be misleading to compare onself to other people.

This said, I don’t think there is nothing wrong with being content of what one has. It’s a beautiful thing. Playing an instrument, no matter how you perceive it, good or bad, and finding joy in it, is a beautiful thing. I also think that one can do that and still strive for more. Actually finding the balance there is probably a very important thing. Because to me the best way to work on ones skills is to do it with joy.

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#39

I used the word “talentlessness” in the thread title because, as fraught as it may be, it’s part of my self-concept (but not in a self-defeating way). The opening post grew out of a fascination with the idea of enjoying something you’re not good at, which on its face seems oxymoronic.

In the end, it may be that all of these labels have the potential to do more harm than good. If someone considers themselves talentless and this prevents them from trying something new, that’s a shame. Conversely, if someone pursues something that doesn’t interest them solely because they’ve been told they have a talent for it, that’s not so great, either.

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#40

Negative labels are very dangerous though–even more so when you apply them to yourself. I’ve had so many students tell me “I can’t do math”, when all I’m asking them to do is look at a table to see which category has a higher percentage. In other words, they won’t even try do something that they are easily capable of only because of their negative self-talk.

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