#456

I do this all the time: Reflektor (NI’s guitar rig based convolution reverb) has a button for it:

Given that, I’m not sure why capturing a reverse reverb is difficult, but I don’t have a good grasp of the maths involved…

1 Like
#457

this is a quick and unscientific test, but…

to my ears, convolving with the forward source with the reversed IR sounds an awful lot like convolving the forward source with the forward IR, then reversing the output.

gnu octave script:

ir_name = 'impulse.aif'
ir_info = audioinfo(ir_name)

src_name = 'amen.wav'
src_info = audioinfo(src_name)

ir = audioread(ir_name)(:,1);
src = audioread(src_name)(1:100000,1);

"calculating (forward)..."
output= conv(ir, src, 'same');
output = output / max(output);

"writing (forward)..."
audiowrite('output.wav', output, 48000); 

output_rev = flip(output);
"writing (reversed output)"
audiowrite('output_rev.wav', output_rev, 48000); 

"calculating (reverse)..."
output_revir = conv(flip(ir), src, 'same');
output_revir = output_rev / max(output_rev);

"writing (reverse IR)..."
audiowrite('output_revir.wav', output_rev, 48000); 

"done"

original amen break

one of the IRs from the midiverb collection above (“medium dark” something)
impulse.aif (1.2 MB)

fwd src / fwd IR:

(fwd src / fwd IR) reversed:

fwd src / reversed IR:

anyways… in a realtime musical context i guess this isn’t that useful directly. you don’t really want to hear the entire reversed reverb tail. but with partitioning…?

7 Likes
#458

Ok, I wrote down the math, such as it is, and I’m totally on board now. The reverse is a linear transformation but the transformation matrix for a reversed window looks like a backwards (? reverse?) convolution (go figure). In fact, it’s the anti-identity matrix which I suspect means that @zebra’s experiment:

can be shown to be mathematical identical (up to some numerical errors?). Speculation, at this point, but seems like it would be easy to show (or to show how they differ).

Sorry for getting in the weeds on this everyone, I’ve just always been interested in musical applications of this stuff, which I have never gotten into :). I feel like Lines is one of the only fora on the internet where I could be having this kinda of semi-technical discussion :slight_smile:

4 Likes
#459

Ok so I took a closer listen to the reverse algorithms in this cranky Midiverb and maybe it’s kind of weird? I’d describe the sound as “kind of a backwards whoosh followed by the original input delayed a certain amount”. And hey since that probably doesn’t go a long way towards actually describing what’s happening, I made a few examples. All of them have a quick sine ping (dry), followed by the effected version.

Here’s the 300 MS reverse preset on the Midiverb (not convolution):

This is what the IR of the same patch ends up sounding like (I created the IR with a sine sweep but sending an impulse yields the same result). Doesn’t sound right at all:

And here’s what happens when I use that same IR, but introduce a predelay on the Covolution Reverb device:

That last one confuses me…I thought the predelay would just sound like the second with a gap at the front, but it also kind of takes on that backwards whoosh you clearly hear in the original.

I don’t know…I’m just kind of posting these examples for fun and curiosity at this point. Make of it what you will. :slight_smile:

1 Like
#460

I am sooooo happy to see this thread go from “what verbs are good” to a little bit of “what are verbs” – both are super interesting to me and I’ve already learned a bunch. Thanks for diving in, and to everyone who is contributing answers! I’m personally super excited.

(Also, nice use of “fora”!)

5 Likes
#461

I think most things on my list have already been mentioned, but here’s what I use -

I have the Verbtronic by Pittsburgh Modular in my rack and like it. It has (to my mind) a metallic feel and overdrives a little too easy for my taste, but it also can sound great and I won’t be parting ways with it any time soon.

I have a Lexicon MX200 which I just racked back up yesterday after being inspired by this thread. It’s a 19" rack-mount unit with 2 effects processors. It has a bunch of different effects and reverb algorithms on it with controls for obvious parameters like depth, repeat, feedback, etc. I really dig the “arena” reverb and the “pong delay”. I picked it up used for around $100 which was a great deal to have access to these nice digital reverbs without using the requisite processing power inside the DAW.

I also have an Alesis MidiVerb III, which was super cool until it suddenly stopped working without warning.

In software, I have Blackhole, by Eventide, in both desktop plugin and iOS formats, and Blackhole is probably my all around goto because, like others here, I understand that the only true and proper way to use reverb is 100% wet and huge, spacey, infinite decay. Seriously though, I do love the way Blackhole sounds and I do tend to abuse reverb in the aforementioned manner (because I LOVE the sound so much) so this is an obvious first choice for me.

I use Ableton’s built in verb and the convolution verb as well, though much less than I use Blackhole and my Lexicon.

Honorable mentions, shout-outs to:

I have the Max4Live version of Dub Machines, by Surreal Machines. Already mentioned, and super great.

Also good in the Ableton packs is “Outer Spaces”, by Amazing Noises. This was becoming a go-to for me for a while then I started noticing some instability with some M4L devices, where replacing or deleting an instrument would consistently cause a hard crash, so I kind stopped using this one for a while and only recently have I been messing with my M4L devices at all.

I have “Little Plate” by SoundToys and use it occasionally. I like Little Plate for its simplicity, as there’s only like 3 or 4 controls on it, making it easier to find the decay and wet/dry controls (the only controls which matter on a reverb, and which should always be set to 11). I don’t use it a ton, but that’s mainly because I’m a creature of habit and forget about it.

Finally, there’s Reaktors reverbs, like SpaceMaster, which I have been checking out just this week and am enjoying using.

4 Likes
#462

I thought Verbtronic was cool, but it annoyed me that the only control over its delay time was the toggle switch when a pot (if not also CV) would have been a lot more fun.

1 Like
#463

image
5F9F7A17-3A10-4695-B7CD-46FF2D4686F2.jpeg3024×3024 1.78 MB

rockin this on something today
digging it :slightly_smiling_face:
psp2445

2 Likes
#464

This has been my favorite recently, when set right it can give that ever illusive sense of actual immersive space that so many reverbs fail to give.

1 Like
#465

To the question of “what are reverbs” how would you distinguish delays and reverbs as effects? Lately I’ve been using Echoboy Jr. and ValhallaDelay for my ‘creating space’ purposes and Valhalla VintageVerb more for colour. For some reason it feels like I can generally get more pleasing and open, big washed out spaces starting from delay rather than reverb. Is it just me not using my reverbs correctly?

1 Like
#466

One goal of fx is to create sense of 3d space around two speakers, and foreground vs background depth.

Sometimes panned delays can better help keep things more open, the source drier and more articulate and the stereo space seemingly bigger. Coupled with AMS style ambience or a touch of short room reverb on key sources, you may get more front to back depth as well than if you put everything through a synth hall.

The Seal records in 90s used this technique to great effect.

3 Likes
#467

The Sean Costello talk linked above touches on this just a few minutes in: distinguishing between spatialisation with distinct individual echos (delay) and where individual repeats are not audible; rather, they smear together (reverb). Amongst other things; the video is better than me.

4 Likes
#468

I have to check that out. That would be my way of dividing delays and reverbs, it just seems that the plugins I mentioned excel working ‘in-between’, and I think having something like wide stereo delay washed out to the point where the repeats are not distinguishable as themselves works really well in widening the space where the ambiance happens.

#469

If you’re into plugins, there’s a beautiful one called Transatlantic Plates. It’s IR-based but really deeply sampled (every setting is a different impulse response, they are not simply faded out). Beautiful stuff.

And yeah, the old good Midiverb (i have the II) sounds very dark and lush in an artificial, but quite awesome way. And it’s super cheap.

1 Like
#470

Fostex (especially the 3180) is seriously my favorite spring reverb, I will proudly put it on any recording I make. Glad to see it come up in this thread.

That said,

Does anyone here patch their own reverb in node-based environments like Audulus or Forever Alpha?

#471

did you ever figure this out / still using the k-mix? considering buying one and i like how portable it is but not sure if it’s the best for using with external effect units. i try to stay out of the box.

and do you play live at all? i heard the software lets you save a bunch of presets to recall perhaps for different songs/venues/projects.

#472

yeah, i got that working and was using that set up a little bit - it requires you to take up input channels which i didn’t love, but it did work. it honestly didn’t feel great and with the k mix in general it can be hard to see what you are doing if there is any light hitting the mixer. i do perform quite a bit and that’s one of the main reasons why i stopped using the k-mix. can’t really see it at all in sunlight and depending on the climate its really easy to get a stutter when you pull a fader up or down because the rubber surface isn’t always smooth.

i stopped using an external mixer a while ago and brought mixing entirely into my eurorack case with intellijel mixup as the final output. i find it much easier for planning patches and traveling with a performance setup. i just run stereo out into my BIM + BAM for final effects and that works for my uses. i also have delays in my case that i can send individual voices though for variety, and generally turn the BIM on and off at different points in my set so the whole mix isn’t always delayed. but BAM generally is always on. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
#473

thanks for this. that pretty much tells me not to go in on the k-mix. plus i was dreading having to deal with another machine external to the modular. the less variables the better, especially on stage.

the mixup looks neat. a lot of functionality in a small package. perhaps i can pair it with cold mac for panning purposes. cheers

1 Like
#474

Do you think this could be ported to norns?
How about the Er-301? (Cortex A8, 1ghz)

5 Likes
#475

Oh certainly. when I get a minute I plan to share code for a basic version lacking some of the bells and whistles, so someone can port it.

9 Likes