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Bedouin Ascent is another example from the 90s. I’m not sure what’s happening in this one tbh :grinning:

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And here’s one more of mine, if I may, just because it’s a bit of a different approach. First bar is 1 beat, next bar is 2, etc. out to 16 beats (4 bars of 4/4) and then it contracts back down again. I made the visual to echo the structure. It is just a loop, but that was what the particular @disquiet Junto name suggested to me.

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I have a so very complicated relationship with four tet. Watching this video, it appears in all honesty that he’s a very bad musician, just using his body as a random source, and the whole thing could be a fantastic joke. Yet i love most of his work, and especially the albums with Steve Reid.

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But is using your body in electronic music performance not always a bit random/strange?

Well, not really when playing keyboards and hitting drumpads.

first part in 4 then 3 then back to 4 then 5 (or maybe say 10)
https://soundcloud.com/hi-mo-2/eyes
this is 5 bars of let’s say 2/4 (bass), the synth chords are in quarter triplets, then comes an ostinato in 7/8
https://soundcloud.com/hi-mo-2/aube

both tracks super cool – nice to hear some spazzy breaks on lines, not the typical fair that makes it around here so much :wink:

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i find learning polymeters / polyrhythms a bit of a strange concept, it’s like trying to calculate a groove in advance, how do you know if something will groove until you play it / hear it? it might be a goal in itself, having something technically challenging, but for most such pieces while some changes might seem random they all fall within some higher meta pattern. though the distinction might not matter that much because our brains will find patterns everywhere anyway.

from that pdf @jasonw22 posted:

"A tablature notation system has been used to make the interlocking of the different drum parts visually understandable. This is important because, even though each piece is written under a time signature, e.g. 6/8, the actual playing of the piece will tend to fluctuate somewhere between 6/8 and 4/4. This is due to an entrainment effect that occurs between the drummers.

Entrainment may be considered vital to liturgical drumming. The Dutch scientist, Christian Huygens, published his research on the subject in 1665: ā€œIf 2 rhythms are nearly the same and their sources are in close proximity, they will always lock up, fall into synchrony, entrain.ā€

i think we are capable of getting entrained by any rhythm really, i guess what i’m trying to say is - the techniques described can serve as a starting point (as an example, i often will cut one loop in ableton shorter and line it that way so that it starts shifting against other tracks) but then it’s up to you to discover that inner logic in complexity and follow it.

as a tangent, i’ve also been thinking about changing the grid itself, instead of being a rigid thing imagine your typical xox patterns on a grid, but this grid is a piece of rubber and you start stretching it… so you still have the grid structure, but it’s elastic now, it’s just a way to keep beat to beat relationships. as one example, i’m fascinated with how different implementations of clock multiplication (which is based on you having to guess when the next beat will occur) deal with tempo changes - intentionally confusing them can make for some interesting results. another thing i’ve been trying to do is start with different loops that seem out of sync but at some point somehow come together and reveal the meta pattern.

and i wouldn’t completely discount 4/4. there is such a hard cold hypnotizing beauty about it.

since we’re talking about polyrhythms i should mention orca again, since polyrhythms are the very foundation of it… as an example:

http://soundcloud.com/scannerdarkly/burn

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Something nearly all rhythms have in common, including polyrhythms (but perhaps not including polymeter) is the concept of ā€œthe oneā€. This is why non-4/4 rhythms are still entirely dance-able (contrary to house and techno aficionado’s belief). A dancer can always find the one, no matter what intricacies lie between.

But my own dance floor observations saw a far less enthusiastic response to strictly 4/4 house and squelchy techno. Anything without a polyrhythm appeared too boring for the syncopated hips of Cubans. Not to poke holes into theories of the Black Atlantic, but a grime-inflected set by Mancunian DJ and labelhead Madam X sent British tourists into a frenzy without igniting the same passion among the mostly black Cuban crowd.

The hypnosis of entrainment is probably the main reason I got sucked into hand drumming so completely in my 20s. I dearly dearly miss that phase of my life. I’m finding it much harder to find a group I feel comfortable grooving with in my 40s (even in a hand-percussion-rich environment like Santa Cruz County, where I live).

I really need to acquire for myself a White Whale and an arc (for orca use)… (and find some drummers and dancers to befriend as well.)

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While on the topic of entrainment, I recently ran across the concept of ā€œcentral pattern generatorsā€, basically biological metronomes. My mind was blown.

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if the overall pulse of the song (or entire duration) isn’t odd does it count?

por ejemplo: take the bassline of this during the chorus…i love the shifts

this definitely fits the discussion (and the jazz sub-narrative)


stripped down for further rhythmic analysis

another good example

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a few of my own at different phases of learning

BABEL
MQ technically 2s and 3s and 6s shouldnt count but there’s a story behind this arrangement
KUCHEK based on ongoing study of ethiopian folk/pop beats

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@glia is it common in Ethiopian music to have such a busy kick/bass drum sound? I’m used to the busier beats being higher in frequency, and I wonder if there’s a physiological reason for that (and I’m intrigued by exceptions…)

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I can never put my finger on the fundamental difference between really lame proggy horrible ā€˜look at me counting’ crap and awesomely abstract mathematically complex music (my fave). I guess it all comes down to emotional commitment and artistic intent in the end.

Is the music really flowing from subconscious or are you cheating?

Certainly it’s unhealthy for music-makers to embrace/copy existing phrasing too much - some music & ideas in this thread are turning me back on to the philosophy of synthesising vocabulary. That’s cool - I gradually (over years) got worn down to a more pragmatic/conservative approach!

But what a huge gulf between the mathematics of harmony, rhythm (or even computer-coding better human interfaces) and real expression…

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i’m mixing differently (poorly?) but there are several similar shuffling patterns on the kick/bass in tunes i’ve come across . but the low end isnt usually pushed fwd as the focal point

also i’m not doing strict orthodox interpretation in a track like kuchek

(for those who have no idea what we’re talking about…a taste)
http://llllllll.co:/uploads/default/original/2X/2/2fc19ae2f99b623d7dcdc8488cfb5b7cb1a7a12a.mp3

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I really dig it. This sounds more like what I’d have expected (more space in the kick track). The shuffle just makes your hips swivel…

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on 2nd thought the music video is too good not to share

baseline and krar are worth stealing drum patterns from in this one

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yeah for sure mine was a more severe skew than i remembered

what i’m still trying to get in my blood enough to play (in this example) is the minutiae of the snare/clap and kick overlaps
i don’t think variances like that are possible to mark properly with notation, and are MUCH harder to play than they seem

been meaning to try with teletype as well

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one from me here too, pardon the shameless plug.

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