Trade category changes


#21

I think you can use the “unread” or “new” tab for that:

https://llllllll.co/unread

Might only work if you set the category to “watch”


#22

Ah nice, the unread category does work when it’s set to tracked*, nice!


#23

I think the physical format swap should have been in another, less commerce-oriented and more public-facing category. It’s ok to “hide” the module sales by me!

Can the cassette swap be a regular thing?


#24

I’d totally be for it! Maybe it would also be a good motivation to finally get a new album done!!!


#25

Agreed! As mentioned in that thread actually getting my sh together to record a home dubbed ep felt like a major accomplishment!


#26

Hi,

I’ve been looking for second hand trading monome offers but I guess all the category was moved. Where can I find it?

Thank you!


#27

Oh sorry I’ve found it just needed to be log in!


#28

In the CoC thread:

I feel comfortable buying/selling here (and on MW) precisely because it’s community-based, and so a bad actor would risk losing their standing in the community. Even though Reverb & Ebay etc have theoretical conflict resolution, I’m much less inclined to buy things there due to trust issues. I have occasionally been sold things that were not 100% as advertised here and on MW, but never to the point that I felt the need to take action, and I credit the community-based nature of those Trade forums for that.

I’m a relatively new modular user (7 months in) and Trade has been obviously a necessary part of getting going. I’m much further along in my journey than I would be without the ability to buy safely.

Trade is not the only reason I’m here but it’s important to me.


#29

Sounds like you are equally comfortable with this community’s ability to make judgements about the (probably undefinable) notion of “standing”.

And it’s a mostly well behaved place most of the time, so perhaps that feeling of comfort is justified. Just something to keep in mind though, that you are depending on all of us to keep each other honest. There are pros and cons to that. I’m increasingly inclined to keep my own interactions on this site limited to those that don’t require so much trust, and the accompanying necessity of moderation. Just a personal decision.


#30

I am fully aware that I’m trusting us all to keep each other honest, and that that is not foolproof. Nor would it be the community’s responsibility if my trust in an individual were misplaced and I were taken advantage of in a transaction or otherwise. It is a step I knowingly and willingly take.

I have also backed out of uncompleted transactions that did not feel right, for whatever reason. It’s not blind trust.

If nothing else, a bad actor in a trade transaction would lose their ability to trade in that community. When I’m looking to trade with someone, I usually look at their length of time with the community, as well as presence in Good Traders threads or on MW on the Dubious Transactions thread.

You should participate in the site to the degree you feel comfortable, and it sounds like you do! I am just speaking up for Trade within a relative sphere of trust as a positive thing, for me.


#31

Do we need a trade category at all? Reverb.com works.

Do the various forum tidying mod activities such as thread merging improve the quality of the site or do they simply make the mod job a lot harder and increase the mod surface area, so to speak? Should moderation be reserved for code of conduct violations?

Drama makes me want to visit a lot less often.


Code of Conduct?
Trade category changes
#32

In general I think the trade category runs just fine - occasionally there are a few bad eggs that creep in and have to be managed, but that’s always going to happen, especially as a community grows, and lines has certainly been growing. I’ll also say that as a seller, I’d much rather sell to a fellow lines member and give them a good deal than drive up the price on Reverb to cover the many fees they charge.

and i think the moderation involving merging topics is very necessary. Just take a glimpse at MW…it’s a complete mess of overlapping threads causing a lot of confusion with where to look for information or where to post, further compounded by the awful search engine. and at any given time there are about a dozen different “help me build my first rack” posts on the front page each with their own thread. i think the recent “drama” if you could even call it that is again due to the fact the forum is growing and maybe people are coming from MW and are used to things being completely unmoderated.

as long as the moderation decisions are clearly communicated to the person being moderated, I think things are just fine!


#33

I don’t see a problem with the trade category. Nor would miss it much, but the problem lies somewhere else than the existence of a trade category.
Reverb takes a percentage iirc? :wink:

I tend to agree I’m afraid… With a lot more mods, more funky mod actions happened. IMO even merging threads becomes very strange quickly and hard to follow (i.e. less great place to stop by).

And now again, after the Dev thread issue, the person affected didn’t seem to get informed about the reason of the mod action, which is pretty rude IMO.

I’ve been unaware of a trade rule myself and got a friendly reminder to change it. Way it should be. And also has been for me, so I want to end my rant with acknowledging the great work many mods do here!


#34

Seems like a fair price to pay for arbitration of disputes, which are an inevitability when trading with strangers.


#35

Sorry, I’m not going along with the idea that companies like Reverb, eBay etc. are sufficient or even necessary for that matter.

They exist, I guess, but that doesn’t mean that communities can’t and shouldn’t support alternatives. In fact, I argue there is somewhat of a moral imperative to do so.

In other words, there is, and always will be a need for informal, community-based trade categories. With any community there is the occasional dispute, drama or bad-faith actor, but healthy communities will address this and emerge stronger as a result. Sadly, we have drunk the Kool-aid, we have lost sight of the fact that for the most part people are inherently kind, generous, and trustworthy. We realize we have limited resources and that we are all in this together. But we need to recover the frame in which we can truly show up to each other as such, and this is exactly what these corporations don’t want anyone to do.

Reverb, eBay, and PayPal create and prey upon a condition and worldview in which we are all led to distrust one another, in which “community” as such simply ceases to exist. Instead of being a foundation for a community, trust is re-interpreted as a scarce resource, to be allocated like food and shelter. In this way they’ve re-framed the entire problem, they position themselves as necessary so they always skim off the top. Their entire business model is based on framing everyone as a potential criminal and sowing this distrust, so there is really no incentive for them to afford trustworthy practices. In other words, they are the ones who put the idea in everyone’s minds that people are by default to be distrusted. This becomes the default mode of thinking even at the community level and become thus a key factor in escalating disputes (if every person begins to show up as a potential scammer, then trustworthy people will start to get at each other’s throats rather than giving each other the benefit of the doubt and work through issues which are mostly the inevitable ones of miscommunication).

Over 25 years of trading gear I’ve seen the level of distrust and drama only increase, in direct proportion to the extent eBay, PayPal and now Reverb have become popular. I think thus that it’s worthwhile to cultivate different approaches, as it will actually increase the extent to which people begin to trust one another again, and by the same token begin to act again in trustworthy ways.

Anyway, just a thought, or an invitation to rethink the conditions under which these services (Reverb etc.) show up as necessary.


#36

OK, to the degree I am able to ignore trade on this site, I’ll agree to disagree. Mostly it’s possible. Hiding the category certainly helped.

And to be fair, I do have a trade post here. I’ve bought and sold things here. It’s just that I don’t see it as a necessary part of the lines experience.


#37

this is so offtopic, I shouldn’t have picked up your sideswipe. but while we’re at it…

I guess I’m just happy enough with free alternatives for trading (modulargrid, facebook, small ads pages. edit: well, you pay with your data I guess).


#38

I think we’ve made it publicly clear that we admit it was an error on our side and that this should not happen. It’s not the first time a trade post is getting taken down and usually the people involved are immediately notified.
But really, we are working on improving this. Moderating a forum is not easy, and errors happen. I think the important thing is to take errors as a change for improvement and always strive to do better. And I think I can talk for all mods when I say that this is definitely what we are trying to do.
Also it’s great to get feedback on it. It’s very important to know how all of you feel about these things.

Again just to be very clear about what happened. The user you reference above, posted a ton of items for sale, some of them were currently unavailable items (eg. Norns) priced higher than the regular new retail price.
The user asked for “Paypal Friends&Family” payments, which is not allowed by the forum rules, and also is against Paypal’s policies. It’s also very bad for the buyer since payments done that way are not covered by any buyer protection.

Many trades are being done daily here on the forum, and very rarely we see something go wrong, so I don’t think we need to be alarmed by it.


#39

This is potentially just an indicator that even after several years I am still not able to properly navigate thru lines…anyway, when I read today’s post about why moderators locked a thread, I wanted to reply by referencing to the trade rules, as I dimly remembered I read them a long time ago, but alas I was not able to find them.

Even now, I was only able to link to them because I found them in said thread.

I did not find them in About llllllll, neither in the FAQ, nor did I find them as a pinned post in the Trade category. Please, what am I doing wrong?

Or in short: Should the trade rules be easier to find, perhaps by also showing them in the FAQ?


#40

“About the Trade Category” appears to be pinned for me!