#31

Recommendations for a USB-C hub to connect to my 2020 MacBook Air. Looking to use:

  • launch control XL
  • midi fighter 3D
  • midi twister
  • KMI K-board
  • MOTU M4

All use type A plugs and 2.0 (except m4) - I get a little lost w/ USB specs - the input port of the M4 is USB C, but it came with a C-to-A cable.

Are there advantages to using a powered vs unpowered hub if the computer is plugged into a power cable? All of the devices I’m using are bus powered.

So I need at least 5 USB A ports and a USB C connection to computer. Bonus for HDMI.

1 Like
#32

That’s the argument in favour of a powered hub right there. Your computer won’t necessarily be able to power everything from the single uplink port.

Just use any good Anker USB-3 hub and a USB-C to USB-A (3.0 or better) adapter. They are cheap. No need for a USB-C uplink at all.

Afaik there are no “hubs” short of expensive docks (OWC, Belkin, and Caldigit make decent ones) that have as many ports as you want plus HDMI and a USB-C uplink. C series hubs tend to have three ports and HDMI or four ports without, because the HDMI takes up the last port on the chipset. So if cost matters, get a standard hub and adapter, and if cost doesn’t matter go for a proper Thunderbolt dock to take full advantage of the throughput on your Air.

1 Like
#33

Yeah, that is what I was thinking.

It is more than I wanted to spend, but the CalDigit TS3 Plus has great reviews. The OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock would also work (would need adapter for HDMI). I need to do some more research.

#34

I own the TS-3 but I would prefer to have the OWC personally. Neither are really portable though, the massive power brick on the TS-3 is bigger than the unit itself. Both get very hot in normal operation. The TS-3 is a good unit but it shares many of its scattered USB ports on a single bus via an internal hub. The OWC has a dedicated chip which gives each port it’s own USB bus making it potentially better for heavy mixed-use USB work. I haven’t used the TS-3 for music as its my work hub but so far I haven’t had any serious complaints about it either. It’s just a little more awkward and a little less perfect than the OWC.

1 Like
#35

I’ve been very pleased with this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0797NWDCB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

1 Like
#36

I have a very dumb question about USB-C, as I’m on the edge of buying a new macbook pro.
As far as I understand, using adapter cables, such as USB-C to mini USB or USB-C to USB 2.0 type A will result in no loss of data speed rate ? Am I right with it ? So I could stick with my current USB hub and simply change the connector between the hub (mini USB) and the computer (USB-C) ?

#37

to save anyone trouble: wirecutter’s usb-c hub pick works for crow/elektron heat. does not work for grid. apples usb-c -> a adapter works great with grid.

EDIT: I think actually I might be getting a lot of ground noise when crow is plugged in to this…not sure if that’s a ground loop issue or if it’s pass through from the hub, gonna investigate

#38

Assuming the adapter is of high quality and not some cheap knockoff, this is correct.

1 Like
#39

Thanks. Basically, adapters are purely analogic, just routing current to the correct pins ?

#40

I believe if you want to get true USB 3.1 speeds from the port you need an active adapter or active adapting cable, as USB 3.1 cables in general have some active components. If you’re ok with only USB 2.0 speeds, you can use a totally passive adapter/cable. The USB specs and implementations get somewhat complicated about under which circumstances full USB 3.1 speeds are provided, so if you want to guarantee the highest speeds possible use high quality, certified adapters or adapting cables, as I recommended. If you use only passive adapters, my read of the specs indicates you will max out at USB 2.0 speeds, although there may be USB 3.0 compatible adapters that give you something in between. Whether those are active or passive I don’t know.

1 Like
#41

Alright. I believe I use only USB2 hardware (midi controllers)

#42

I’m still not sure what is the best way to connect a USB (2.0) hub to a new macbook pro.

  1. I could stick to my old hub, an simply connect it to the computer with a USB-C to mini USB B. In this case, will I still need to power the hub externally, or will the USB-C deliver more juice than USB 2.0 ports ?

  2. I could just buy a new hub (minimum 6 ports), and in this case I’d be happy to have some recommendation.

Thanks !

#43

With USB 2 there is no best. All of those are equal in terms of performance. In terms of power USB 2.0 does not offer negotiated additional power per port and so you will never benefit from the increased USB 3.0 power standards. If your peripherals depend on power from the USB port then I recommend, as always, to use an externally powered hub. Anker makes very good ones, I use a variety of theirs with USB-C macs without issue using Apple’s dongle or just simple cables. When downconverting USB standards don’t expect to get serious port power no matter what the port is capable of providing (You might get lucky but it isn’t guaranteed to work). Older standard hubs and peripherals aren’t allowed to exceed the lower power requirements anyway.

1 Like
#44

Ok then. Old hub, new cable, still using the power plug. No bad no worse than before in term of performance. Which should be ok since it’s mainly 1 AKAI MPK 261 + 1 Roland A-49 + a joystick and a LPD 8.
Thanks !

#45

This might be a totally stupid, or let’s say uninformed, question since I never really used USB for more than plugging one thing into a computer and then do something with it.

Is it possible to connect all my devices through an USB hub, that will power them and transmit Midi back and forth without connecting a computer? Since all my sequencers and synth boxes have those USB B jacks and want to be connected to an USB A jack it seems to me that connecting them via a HUB, without a device that actually has an USB A jack to offer would be cheating. I guess A and B stands for something and is not just about the physical form, right?

Is it possible to build a MIDI network over USB without a computer at all? Most of my devices also offer DIN MIDI and this question raised from thinking about the most effective way to power all those modern boxes. Only when I thought about using a powered USB HUB for it I wondered if I could incorporate my two controllers that only offer USB MIDI and maybe Norns into the whole setup that way.

#46

there are no stupid questions, especially when it comes to MIDI

in many cases iconnectivity devices are used for this. MioXM for example has 4x USB MIDI host ports combined with 4x DIN MIDI IN and OUT ports and other more-or-less useful features. Another example is Retrokits RK-006 that combines 10 MIDI jack OUT and 2 MIDI jack IN with USB MIDI host that accepts compatible USB hubs for connecting more USB MIDI devices.

#47

To answer specifically, USB midi devices are usb clients. Such clients are not able to directly communicate with one another. Instead you need a usb midi host which may then use the midi in/out ports presented by each device to route midi messages. There are various devices to act as hosts, though often they don’t support usb hubs (i.e one port on device supports only one midi client). You might like the RK-005 for your purposes (it supports hubs).

1 Like
#48

Thank you both for pointing me there! I guess there was wishful thinking involved on my side then. Using USB MIDI without a computer seems to be a niche use case. I think that made it hard for me to find a source to understand how it actually works that did not start with expecting me to want to connect devices to a DAW. Those options do look interesting though.

The RK-006 seems to be made especially for this use case, though I am a bit hesitant with a small box of plastic and getting into those TRS MIDI cables. It just does not feel sturdy and reliable from a first look having these flying around behind the scenes with cables going in all directions. Also I could not find any information about latency and how to filter/distribute virtual USB ports internally other than everything that goes in will be distributed to all outputs. I am not sure if that is what I really want or if it will lead to loops and limiting the channels that can be used.

From the manula for the Mio it is not clear to me, if it really will work as a stand alone MIDI host. At least they don’t expect someone to want this. Otherwise it looks great and might be something to go back to later when the issue, that is now more of an inconvenience gets more urgent.

There also is the upcoming conductive labs MRCC, wich looks great and can be preordered now with expected delivery in March. Standalone desk device though, with a clumsy rack ear option, but very intuitive routing and filter options!

Probably most people who are interested in something like this work on a desk (or floor :slight_smile: ) and the MRCC design with easy accessible jacks on top/front is great. While those who want to have something racked with jacks on the back most likely just want a MIDI interface and connect it to their computer anyway.
I am centered around a Circlon and only connect the MacBook if I want to seriously record something. So I went for a simple Kenton through box and USB power supplies where needed and just leave the USB only devices out for now, respectively keep them connected to Norns, which works as USB host, as I understood now - so I should be able to to connect it to the Circlon and have them work or at least synced together. I guess Norns will not automatically distribute MIDI information to other connected devices, right? :slight_smile:

I suppose in the end the main problem here is a collection of interesting little thingies, soldering projects and standalone boxes, growing around a modular system without having a proper designed studio backbone to carry all that. Plus not wanting to use a computer out of mere practical reasons. When I have to connect the MacBook first and start up Logic, there is an inhibition threshold holding me back from making music. When it is connected, there is the same mechanism holding me back from doing my payed work - I am annoyingly complicated with actually doing my stuff…might just need a second computer. The new MacBooks look great but will probably neither connect to my audio interface, nor host the windows application I nned for work).

#49

not sure what do you exactly mean but I’m sure many electronic artists are facing the same problem as you when trying to use instruments with modern MIDI implementations. People have been building elaborate computer free MIDI setups for ages, espcially for live performance, but now there are all these new options like TRS MIDI (two different ones in fact), USB MIDI and modification like Chace Bliss floating ring TRS MIDI. I counted recently about 6 different MIDI connection types in my tiny living-room studio. Some of them can talk to others, some need a specific cable, some require converter, some more elaborate witchcraft. There also is no existing comprehensive converter translating all of them. MRCC you mentioned seem to go a long way but still is lacking wireless MIDI options, also MIDI over LAN. As for USB MIDI, RK-006 and Mio both do have configuration software available that lets you modify the routing and the behaviour of ports. I do share your concern about RK-006 surviving in real use cenario (also I don’t think TRS MIDI should have a place on stage - way too easy to accidentally loose connection). Iconnectivity devices however have been used for live shows since forever.

sweet.

btw there is this video that also talks about USB MIDI interconnectivity. Despite it’s title, it does not cover “everything you need to know” but what it covers it covers well enough.

#50

What I meant was that when I tried to understand USB-Midi and the way USB-Midi interfaces work, all information I found, be it from manuals or other general ressources I got to, was centered around the question how to connect devices to a DAW, assuming that this is what most people actually want to do. And I think that is indeed a valid assumption. Most people want to play their VST on a keyboard or sequence their external gear from their DAW as that is how it goes nowadays and what devices are designed towards and what USB MIDI was originally meant to be used for.

Those who don’t like it that way probably just use MIDI-DIN and my ‘issue’ only occured since modern devices, probably to reduce costs, tend to either not offering DIN jacks anymore and/or, probably to save the costs of international power outlet compatibility, are powered by USB. The latter is not an issue in general (though I dont feel that microUSB connectors are a good thing) but triggered my wishful thinking that when I have to use USB power supplies anyway, I could reduce them to one pwered hub. And as soon as I landed there, I thought, well, now they are all connected anyway - why not get rid of the now redundant DIN cables…but no, it does not work that way.

Now, off the beaten tracks there seem to be different niches with different needs. The MRCC for example seems to be disigned for people who might or might not use a computer/DAW but mostly work with a lot of different devices with different connectors which they tend to have sitting on a table aor lying on tthe floor. Therefore it makes sense to have single MIDI hub that is easily accessible and programmable form a table top angle. I guess in such a setup it would be unlikely to use MIDI over LAN, which might be more of a thing for people who have all their stuff more or less permantely connected within a fixed setup that needs a lot of data being trensferred to and from a computer. And those people might prefer a rack unit with most connections on the back of the device where all other devices have their connections too.
Now the MRCC will have rack ears and they have a notch to reach for the power switch and some more connectors on the side and you could route all your cables through that notch to get inside the rack but they would cover the screen then and look like a mess.
The RK-006 is more or less just a smaller verison of this, great for people who have a backpack full of all those small little boxes and controllers to make music with and don’t want or need such a big device like the MRCC.

Then there are those smaller devices sproviding host functionality for one device but don’t support USB hubs and act more like a USB device to DIN adapter for when you really just want to connect your USB controller to something.

I have looked into the MioX line again now and it seems that it should be able to do what I was looking for. My issue might be that neither the manual nor the instructional video for the programming software do state this totally clear, while they take a huge effort to describe how to set up channels with a DAW, which from a first look seems pretty intuitive and straight forward to me. And I start to wonder, if they take a such an effort to explain the obvious (like to renama track, click on th epencil button…) then maybe the slightly less obvious they omit might not be as obvious as it seemed to me - like with the cables.

I tend to be a bit rigid and complicated when interpreting information and trying to decide for a good option to solve a complex problem. I am afraid that is the only issue here. Oh dear, thanks for listening.