Where are the women and non cis males?



this is why I asked…I don’t know everything
thank you @zebra



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i’m not talking about ono’s phrase, i’m talking about the swearing and belittling. it’s ironic in the context of the thread that you don’t see the issue with this.


i’m not sure what it is you find unfuckingbelievable about a request to lay off ad hominem attacks on people you don’t agree with - particularly when that person is being very polite. if you feel someone is lacking information, it’s easy to fix - share the information.

since the idea of ‘safe spaces’ seems of concern here, maybe i’ll risk sharing a relevant thought about that (sorry):

i went to oberlin college (natch) in the late 90’s, where i first encountered the notion. it was mostly of interest to black students, and increasingly to gay students.

the conservative right loves to use the term ‘safe space’ in a straw man argument, referring to some kind of forbiddance of uncomfortable or controversial topics or material. but i’ve never seen this taken seriously by adults. (though i can see how it might apply in extreme cases; e.g. PTSD sufferers and so on. that’s another topic…)

the ‘safety’ sought in this kind of safe space is safety from aggression in discourse, and a guarantee of mutual respect. it would be great if we could trust people to give that in an opt-in environment like an internet forum or an academic institution.

unfortunately, what black/gay/female students in rural ohio found, is that the only way to guarantee that kind of safety was to take up policies that explicitly exclude people who aren’t black/gay/female. because straight/white/male students were simply too well-socialized to be trusted to give up their power willingly.

and in the intervening 20 years i have heard every kind of debate about this kind of policy. doesn’t look like we’re any closer to figuring it out.


This is an interesting discussion for many reasons but I’ve also pondered the question of why more women aren’t making music, or recognised for making music.

As a sometime writer about music I’ve tried to take a positive discrimination approach and promote men and women equally (not trying to discriminate against other identities here, just keeping it simple) and struggled to find subjects.

Or found women less likely to want to engage in online self-promotion maybe?

This week @disquiet shared this link and there’s a lot of discussion from women about the subject.

One thing that stood out for me was the idea that by asking the question “where are they?” we end up reinforcing their absence.

Dipping into the PDF of the book and reading comments certainly made me realise that asking the question “why don’t women make more music?” of my interview subjects must be a tiring topic for them.

If I were a woman, I don’t think I’d identify as one online.


Look, @glia is one of the primary reasons this community is so unusual and so wonderful - both for his subtle and rewarding music, and for the exceptional honesty and care he brings to each contribution here. You’ve caused understandable offense; he has diplomatically noted it; and you have respond by complaining that he doesn’t share your life experience! That’s right, we don’t all share your life experience. We’re doing our best through a powerful but imperfect medium - words online - to enrich each others’ lives, and our own. I personally care deeply about lines, and value what I learn here. Please reconsider your tone and approach when communicating in this forum.


I came here to basically say this. Just because you don’t experience something, doesn’t negate the experiences of other people.


One thing of note: avoidance of forums is clearly not limited to groups mentioned in the OP. And not always linked to issues of fear/safety.

I think it might be constructive to discuss our positive interaction with women & non-cis peeps online. I have had plenty of invigorating and inspirational conversation with folks via email, soundcloud/instagram/twitter dms, facebook etc.

Regardless of which platforms people choose to interact and discuss art, the exchange of knowledge and culture is important.


I think, if there’s one thing that this topic has really fostered, is a clear need for the visibility, participation, and boosting of the voices of women and non-cis-gendered people. I can only be a megaphone for the Geena Davis Institute (which focuses on women, but I believe resonates for all) in echoing that representation is inspiration. There’s much more to say on the problems of what that looks like (such as how men often perceive a [binary] gender parity when there’s still ~80% men), but that’s not for me to suss out.

It’s a problem that there aren’t more role models for people who are the minority in a given population. It’s additionally nearly proven that when given these role models, encouragement is fostered for the underprivileged to pursue the exciting and powerful opportunities that the privileged take for granted.

On a personal level, I know that if there was more visibility and safety for queerness in our culture, I would have known far younger that what I felt and believed about myself was okay and not worth punishing myself for, and had words to talk about it, an identity to grab hold of and call myself. That’s empowerment.


None taken.

It’s a tricky issue to discuss without slipping signs of normativity. And I’m well aware of me being part of a privileged group; white, middle age, middle class, heterosexual, male… And how those factors together with education, culture, social and professional relations influence how I express myself and understand the world.

And I could probably have been more clear in my first post - that my concern and curiosity is not so much about this forum as the electronic music scene surfacing on facebook, forums, the internet as a whole.

I am. Genuinely curious. Not really with who identifies as who or what. But with that we welcome and make diversity possible as best we can.

And honestly - in that I’m pretty egoistical. Because I know I get more creative and more stimulated when I get to interact with people who carry other experiences and perspectives than I do.

And this :arrow_up: is certainly happening in this discussion. Thanks.


If my neuroscience pals were here they’d have something to say about “environments without visual/physical interaction remove threat cues that often derail mens’ attempts to communicate amongst each other, while the elimination of those same cues remove a key tool that women rely on to communicate successfully” but they’re not here so I won’t bring it up. What I will mention is that moving dialog into the platonic realm online makes it easier for me to communicate ideas than it is when I try to do those things face-to-face, but YMMV.

Falkner, et al. Hypothalamic control of male aggression-seeking behavior, Nature Neuroscience 19, 596–604 (2016) doi:10.1038/nn.4264

McClure, et al. A developmental examination of gender differences in brain engagement during evaluation of threat, Biological Psychiatry, Volume 55, Issue 11, 1 June 2004, Pages 1047-1055, ISSN 0006-3223, http://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopsych.2004.02.013


this is ‘The Pink and Blue Project’, an ongoing work (starts in 2005) by JeongMee Yoon.
a lot of other pink and blue pictures in her site : here.
quoting her :

(this project) explores the trends in cultural preferences and the differences in the tastes of children (and their parents) from diverse cultures, ethnic groups as well as gender socialization and identity.


The differences between girls’ objects and boys’ objects are also divided and affect their thinking and behavioral patterns. Many toys and books for girls are pink, purple, or red, and are related to make up, dress up, cooking, and domestic affairs. However, most toys and books for boys are made from the different shades of blue and are related to robots, industry, science, dinosaurs, etc.

(if you read the excellent and clear presentation of her work, and wonder why blue was once associated with girls : this is the color of the Virgin Mary).

So what can we do to allow for even more diversity in this community?

now i guess we could start to make (to imagine ? to provoke ? to do ? to act ? … ?) a shift in the civilization. (we, human beings).

to put a more personal, or intimate note : these pictures have a huge impact on me. i feel violence, sadness and anger. i also feel scared and shocked by these documents, as it looks like a nightmare.


It’s understandable to be taken aback by these knolling photos that display the inculcation of an acquisitive tendency in young children (and saturated in gendered social stereotypes to boot).

But I have a hunch that this glorification of acquisition, this indoctrination of consumption, is often a reaction to epigenetic memories, inherited through generations, of poverty and deprivation.

When we get to a point where we can have not just enough, but even more than enough, perhaps for the first time in many many generations, it’s perhaps a little more understandable that a proliferation of cheap gaudy plastic crap for children would occur. It’s an indirect and sublimated way of saying “we have enough, we will not starve today”. It’s just a shame that all that pink and blue plastic contains no nutritional value, and plenty that is carcinogenic went into its manufacture.

So I hope that after we have our flush of “we’re not gonna starve!” we can start the journey back to “enough” in a true sense. In a sense that provides nutrition and doesn’t cause cancer, and in so doing avoids the advertising and marketing that benefits from patriarchal gender stereotypes. It took generations to emerge from deprivation. It will likely take a couple to emerge from overabundance and consumption into true health.

That’s my hope, anyway.


Good points Jason, but I wonder if there is even such a thing as acquisitive tendency in children? Or — if we speak a roomful of toys, — a genetic memory? From my standpoint, it’s more of a family values / fosterage thing, and if one’s mom & dad are too busy looking online for amazon promo codes (as in: “I’ll only brush my teeth after I find a good deal on this — oh my God, — faux-diamond inlaid selfie stick that Kanye West’s endorsing!” :dagger:), then yeah: would be too much to ask of a young child not to fall into that trap of pointless accumulation thinking.

You are probably correct it’ll take generations to change things globally in this regard (although if you’ve had de-evolution classes in school, you may debate :upside_down:), but were we to raise our kids more sane and rational in this regard, I think there are some steps we can take now.

Instead of filling the home with cheap gaudy disposable playthings, we can try and convey to the child the concepts of “create” and “consume”, & do what we can to bring up a little ‘Creator’. This can be accomplished by shifting our shopping habits to various constructor toys, or kits: like, I don’t know, science experiment lab sets? LEGO? Plasticine?

Likewise, you can just tell your kids then: want a new car? Why don’t you just build one from blocks? Or what about that Flying Castle you saw in Miyazaki’s film; maybe that can keep you occupied for a while, and… you don’t need a shiny new toy this much after all?



Yeah, I was a bit more removed, looking at what motivates parents to do this.

Parents may be encouraging children’s acquisitiveness, but believe me, once a kid gets the taste for it, they do it all on their own.

As for how to raise kids, we chose to raise dogs and cats and goats and llamas instead. I can’t imagine raising children into a world in denial about climate change and my heart goes out to all those who are doing so.


“Goodnight Stories for rebel girls” is a good place to start looking for empowering stories for young girls.

Lots to discuss here from activists, artists, scientists to sports icons etc. It is a great relief from the “princess” images touted by Disney et al.

OT but to address this…

I became a science teacher and work exclusively with kids in Kindergarten - 12 years old. Every year group has a portion of their work on environmental issues (and activism). I think it’s important to empower children with the ability to question authoritarian figures.

But the biggest joy i have is developing children who do question information fed to them… Printed up on my door, in large letters, the simple phrase “Question everything”.


Bless you for that…


I think the discussion here leans STEM/Computer heavy, and as we all know http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

Very short response, but it’s kind of a tired subject in circles I run in.

The answer is obviously a bit more nuanced, but this thread has derailed enough times already :wink:

edit: longer answer - why argue and yak shave to “prove your worth” when you can just spend your time making dope art


maybe related to this topic:


I saw this article today and it seems in keeping with the discussion above:
How Oakland’s Experimental Music Scene Became Queerer, Browner, and More Femme