Thanks for mentioning that update. I just updated and it does seem a lot quieter now!

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sorry to be asking questions like this all over…
my computer died this week so I’m about to pull the trigger on a new macbook pro because I don’t think I could really deal with switching over to windows. not sure yet if I’ll get the higher end model or not, we’ll see what kind of discount I might be able to get. but, anyone using the current gen of macbook pro? any major reason to not go for it?

also I can’t quite figure out… for the RAM/hd configurations… do you have to get the machine built to spec, or is it possible to get the base model in a class and have upgrades made later if need be?

its the first time I’ve actually bought a new machine since 2008 rather than get someone’s old one they replaced so I’m a bit nervous about taking the plunge.

as far as I know, the ram is entirely soldered in, so you get what you get when you order it.

I think the flash memory is soldered down in the latest computers as well, so you’re kinda locked in. ifixit does good tear downs to look at upgrading/repairability for this stuff.

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The laptops – yes. Not only is the ram soldered, but they are so tightly packed inside they’re practically unserviceable. Not the same with the Mac Mini, in which, if you’re careful and brave, you can add more RAM… but not actually do much else. On the plus side, they’re all built to last, especially if you don’t run them hot. Whatever you do, avoid the macbook pro with previous model keyboard.

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All the currently shipping models are worth the money and should last a long time, yes. Personally I find the extended warranties worth it as they cover accidental damage with a serious discount, and if I had to trade a cpu speed bump for the warranty for budget reasons I’d take the slightly slower CPU. The differences are rarely noticeable unless you’re doing insane 3D graphics compositing or realtime video or something. No need to get the fastest GPU for the same reason. It depends on your workload. Ableton and most other DAWs and plugins run fine on the 13" models even with a lot of tracks and, conversely, if you use intensive plugins or VCV rack in a heavy way you’ll easily overwhelm even the highest end systems quickly so it’s really about your ability to manage your workload and expectations versus your budget.

If you’re getting a laptop, as stated by others above, get the most RAM you can afford upfront. If you’re getting a Mac Mini, get the base RAM and save a ton by buying the iFixit upgrade kit which is excellent and also includes all the specialty tools you need. The upgrade is of moderate complexity and doable by a careful novice without any issues as long as you are capable of paying attention.

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With my 2015 machine, I have severe problems with crackles/dropouts when moving the entire window, with VCV or AU/softsynth with considerable complexity. Changing knobs is OK in VCV, but with plugins dropouts sometimes occur here as well.

Isn’t the fast GPU necessary to avoid this (by successfully offloading all graphics related computation)? Otherwise, what could be the limiting factor?

No, the faster GPU won’t necessarily do anything for you here. Compositing the main windows is a split operation between the CPUs and the GPU. In nearly all cases, audio processing itself is not ever GPU accelerated as it is not a parallel task, it is largely sequential and GPU audio toolkits are neither common nor simple to use. Most “GPU accelerated” plugins simply use the OS’s native graphics toolkits to offload the ui redrawing to the GPU whenever possible, removing the bulk of work in those threads from the CPU’s workload. The CPU still manages gathering and sending information to and from the GPU, system interaction such as control value modification and dispatch, and other interaction-based UI processing, in addition to moving the requisite data to the realtime threads which are doing the audio processing.

VCV on Macs is notoriously slow, from what I understand (and realize I don’t use it at all, so I’m speaking from the result of my discussions with those who do) because it does not even properly offload all of the drawing to the GPU, but rather does quite a bit of that on the CPU too. It may also not properly utilize the threading components of the OS as well on a Mac, but that’s speculation. Overall, though, it’s just because it doesn’t have the benefit of the usual optimizations on the Mac that it has on Windows, not because the Mac or your hardware is particularly pokey.

Bad software can make even an amazing computer grind to a halt.

Softsynths with considerable complexity are similar - it really depends on how you’re using them. All of their realtime workload (again, save for perhaps some very exotic examples) do the real work on the CPU in threads. Some DAWs assign one thread per track, some don’t. Depending on how many of these synths, and how they are distributed across your tracks works out, you may be overloading only one or two of your cores, or you may be simply asking too much of the system, flat out. A faster GPU will do absolutely nothing for you there. And if the plugins use even a little CPU for redraws or UI work and are not 100% accelerated, any graphics redraws will hit your audio performance too, which is noticeable if you’ve pegged your system. Check the utilization of each of your cores and see if it’s evenly distributed when running your audio system at full load. Just one overloaded core can drag the whole system down, if it’s also the core the main graphics threads run on, and the system cannot always distribute the workload evenly due to the linear, serial nature of audio processing.

The main solution to your problem is manifold - first, more evenly distribute your processing demand across your CPUs, either by splitting some of it across tracks or by freezing what you can. Second, make sure you’ve taken as much advantage of your cores as possible by not running ANYTHING else on your system during these periods of heavy use, not email clients, or messages, or anything that’ll steal background CPU time. Third, see if you can replace some of your heavier and less optimized plugins with lighter weight versions where you can. And definitely check to see if you’re forcing your system into swap for some reason. The CPU gets very involved when you start swapping and that can ruin realtime processing. Also, if you’re using an audio card that has third party drivers, make sure it’s from a brand reputable at low latency and high performance like RME or MOTU (MOTU got good in the last few years, before that they were only meh on performance). A lot of other brands that have their own drivers, especially older ones with older versions of MacOS, can be less optimized.

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I’ve forgotten the few details I knew, but I think VCV Rack (WaveEdit too) are both implemented with GLFW and there’s no framebuffer or something like that, so the entire GUI is being constantly redrawn. Both apps consume considerable processor even when “idle” and will really heat up a laptop fast. What you see here is VCV Rack and the demo patch loaded doing nothing:

There are “cross-platform” applications; I expect there’s little Mac-specific about it and probably little to nothing optimized for Mac.

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If that’s true, it’s even worse than I understood. Thanks for this!

Yeah, it doesn’t matter how powerful your laptop is, VCV Rack (and WaveEdit) will get your fans going full blast in no time flat.

Thanks for taking the time for this thorough response. CPUs and GPUs and all that stuff is not my forte, so your response is very helpful in clearing things up :slight_smile:

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Just for giggles, I fired up Bitwig, another cross-platform app. (This is on an i7 iMac, not a laptop.) I have no idea what the BitWig UI is rendered with.

Here is Bitwig in a “resting state” (from the User’s perspective): the transport is stopped and nothing seems to be happening. I’m pretty sure some clocking and audio interface monitoring is happening behind the scenes:
2020-06-27 at 1.48 PM
If I enable The Grid (the VCV Rack-like device included in Bitwig) with one fairly simple patch that emits the clock to an audio output, then it stabilizes around here:
2020-06-27 at 1.51 PM

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thanks all for the tips. gotta decide between the middle two pros- get the lower with a RAM upgrade, or go for the higher one stock, so basically paying 250ish more for a faster processor and two more ports. I think anything though will feel like lightning speed coming from a dual core with a non-SSD drive from 2012 that has been slowly failing for years.

I use reaper for recording and editing, sometimes I use some plug ins for EQ, Dexed, nothing fancy, and had started fooling with automatonism and audiomulch again recently. I think maybe I would do more ITB if I trusted my machine, which can change now, but I still think a lot will be hardware anyway, or nothing overly complex.

I liked messing around with VCV for fun but I found it so incredibly clunky I switched over for automatonism because what I was doing was pretty straightforward in both anyway. I guess this is where platform optimization and the limits of open freeware come in. I can imagine while not as open going for something like Reaktor Blocks or things like that half you are paying for proper code optimization.

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I had to make the same decision recently and went for the more expensive one with 2 ports. I think it is the better choice of you consider the Processor Benchmarks, RAM and the almost hidden fact that it has a newer generation graphics card (as far as I understand). Although that might not be true depending on how tight the Budget is.

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so, stupid question…but how do y’all use headphones with your new macbooks? is everyone doing bluetooth headphones with their laptops? silly dongles? I miss my 1/8" jack on my iphone, sad to see it gone here too :frowning:

I’m pretty sure that the headphone jack is still on all the macbooks, no?

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All the Mac laptops still have headphone jacks.

Unfortunately, the iPad Pros do not have them. Last I checked, that can be a serious problem.

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Duh. I’m dumb :slight_smile: Dunno why I thought they didnt have them. I was looking into usb c hubs options so I could plug in my old USB stuff, and noticed that some of the hubs offered 3.5mm audio jacks. Wrongly assuming that apple did away with them…which wouldn’t be unexected…

I’m sure it’s just a matter of time. But they need to have a low latency alternative in place. They jumped the gun with the iPad Pro.

Changed jobs and got a 2018 MBP. Easily the worst laptop I’ve ever owned, although maybe I’ve just been lucky.

  • Speakers: blown
  • TouchBar: constantly freezing, requiring me to execute terminal commands to fix (it happens enough that I now have bash aliases)
  • Keyboard: a freaking mess of stuck keys and double presses… not good for my live coding performances to say the least.
  • Logic Board (T2 in particular): random kernel panics (“BAD MAGIC!”)
  • Screen: discolored spots

I’ve avoided getting it repaired because my IT department installed a bunch of bloatware security software on it that took me almost a day to remove; they handle returns/repairs, and I didn’t want to go through having them potentially install their junk again (I’m in violation!). But I can’t take it any more… when I get back home to my reliable 2015 mbp I’m sending this in regardless.

Just wanted to update my way-too-rosy perspective from 2017. That laptop (which I only had a year before changing jobs) also eventually developed one or two stuck keys, but otherwise seemed a bit more reliable… but maybe it was just a matter of time.

edit: sorry for the rant, really hope the new mbps are better, although I’ve read that they still often have the same T2-related kernel panics.