#1

Adam Neely’s recent video on the white supremacist origins of music theory (or, to be more particular, “music theory” as it is colloquially understood by most Americans, an important caveat since there is a much more interesting breadth of music theory discussed on Lines) solidified a bunch of vague thoughts that have been floating around in my head. I was trained in the exact tradition he discusses – started piano at age 6, was a piano major for part of undergrad before realizing I don’t enjoy live piano performance, continued playing “the classics” (Beethoven, Bach, Chopin) well into my 30s – and I’ve only recently begun to comprehend how limited my learning actually was for creating and analyzing music I like (Merzbow, Subotnick, Aphex Twin, Autechre, Sonic Youth, etc).

I’m still grappling with what, if any, place this “classical” training has for me – not to mention the fact that I grew up as a straight white cis male in an upper middle class family (ALL of the privilege!) which intersects in uncomfortable ways with the issues Neely raises. What do other people think about this stuff?

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#2

The unfortunate consequence of history is we’re all a little bit complicit in things with brutal origins and the effects of which continue to present day and surely will into the distant future. It would be incredibly naive to assume one can extricate oneself from anything problematic while enjoying the comforts of technology, global trade, banking etc. As an example, the modern banking system was built on the slave trade, particularly on the breeding of slaves (an investment with guaranteed growth); and we arent even talking about environmental politics yet!

In my opinion, understanding is the most important thing, as it is what allows any possible change. But I also dont’t think it is worthwhile always to abandon tools with a problematic history - because all our tools are like that. Make positive change whereever you can, promote this kind of dialogue, and try not too waste too much energy feeling guilty for things outside of your control.

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#3

i found adam neely’s video wonderful and eye opening. the concept that “music theory” has evolved to mean “western music theory of a few 18th century white guys” is one of those truths that once you hear it, you instantly grok and can’t go back.

i’m committed to sharing and discussion concepts like this and creating as inclusive of a space as a i can for all my music and art.

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#4

unnnffff adam neely is extremely knowledge daddy. there are so many terrible white jazz men, and he is working overtime to redeem the title.

I like jonatron’s frame–– the big change that’s happened since the advent of the synthesizer is a change in listening to accommodate all of the things that contravene the hegemonic interpretation of what music is or should be. it’s happening everywhere! art isn’t technical mastery anymore folks, and that conservatory model was just a way of recycling cultural hegemony.

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#5

Thanks for posting, just watched, great stuff.

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#6

Philip Ewell, who is interviewed and features strongly in that video has a great site and writes/speaks on these issues often. Highly recommend:

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#7

If you are on Twitter, Dr Matthew Morrison is another great insight in race/sound/theory issues:

https://mobile.twitter.com/DrMaDMo

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#8

Was a great video.

One thing I found pretty disappointing was his overlooking of “class” in the argument. I mean, he mentions it towards the end to point out how education(/theory) = privilege, but that doesn’t do nearly enough.

I mean, even the frame of it in a racial context suuuper overlooks the fact that “music theory” ignores all folk music. So it is not like a bunch of “white” folk music, or non-classical music’s get the same cultural cache and support that “music theory” affords. So while I agree that Schenker is surely a racist POS, as are a bunch of the people in that world, for me the clearer dividing line is class vs race.

edit:
I also think that the overall framing of “having a theoretical framework” meaning something is worthwhile (like Adam’s examples with Indian music et al) seems to push forward that “music” is something that is rigorous and deserves/requires a theoretical framing and understanding to be “good” in the first place.

Which, again, overlooks lots of folk traditions, in particular, but also “low brow” art in general.

So just because an art form doesn’t have (or need) this kind of analytical framework doesn’t make it any less real. So even the framing of the question is super charged for me.

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#9

was waiting for someone to touch on this

ignores or tries to reframe within their boundaries

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#10

so true, however, i think it’s good to prioritize: fighting classism doesn’t necessarily uproot racism, but fighting racism does inherently call to question classism(maybe i’ve just seen more racism in my life, though).
So i’m glad Neely focused on racism first and foremost(it’s about time someone did in this realm).

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#11

I agree with this. I’m not entirely comfortable with considering racism as a subset to/adjunct of class. There’s a reason that Neely focused on B** S****** and his dismissal of rap as “not music.” There’s a clear stream of racism that flows through music theory outside of the classism (which is also certainly there). The way that the American music theory establishment has explicitly marginalized POC musicians is a really important thing to think about, at least for me, and the reasons for this are not class-based.

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#12

In the US, our history of enslaving people and the impact that has had on the accumulation of generational wealth plus the long effects of Jim Crow policies such as real estate redlining makes it challenging to differentiate economic/class and race issues.

While economic/class differences are real they are greatly amplified along racial lines in the US.

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#13

I agree 100%. The US has a very specific and terrible history with race, and how that lines up with economic factors.

I primarily took issue with how class was completely disregarded in the video as what falls under “music theory”.

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#14

It was a half hour youtube video already, quite long for “influencer” content. It’s not that big of a deal if he didn’t want to muddy the waters and extend it into a full college semester worth of material. It was pretty well done and stayed on his specific topic.

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#15

it’s also great that Neely put this out at this moment in history, when the Black Lives Matter movement has made such a heavy resurgence(it’s been around for at least a decade now, but people are finally giving it the attention it deserves). Someday, once we can defeat the systemic racism that threatens Black Lives most(and not just in the U.S. but everywhere in the world, especially in countries which participated in the Atlantic slave trade long ago, but never made reparations for all that harm, this racism has grown too unconsciously entrenched), then I’m all for talking about how ‘all lives matter [equally]’, but for now, i think sexism and racism are more pressing issues(simply because they form a more primitive kind of neurosis and leaving them unchecked is causing a massive disease of ignorance and harm to everyone, everywhere).

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#16

Not in the US. We have a large body of theory describing jazz practice dating back to the 1950s. American folk and pop music in general has been well theorized since at least the 1970s. There are a number of scholarly journals that have published articles addressing such topics. Here’s an excellent textbook published in 1977:

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Changes-Practical-Vernacular-Harmony/dp/0793555698

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#17

The music theory field has made a lot of strides with jazz, rock, and even hip-hop, but you would never guess it from the high school and college core theory curriculum. The required theory sequence in a typical music department hasn’t changed in any appreciable way in 100 years.

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#18

This is true. Departments definitely focus their theory courses on the type of music they teach, and most don’t focus on folk. I was only responding to the assertion that folk music is not theorized. We have many journals and degrees in ethnomusicology, jazz, etc. At Morehead State you can major in “Traditional Music”, which teaches Appalachian folk traditions—and they give theory courses in that.

#19

Several observations:

  1. In the US, there is very, very little in pop music that wasn’t already tried by academic musicians several decades earlier. Two examples: When you trace the historical development of jazz harmony, it is always lagging behind the “legit” composers by a decade or two. The use of granular and sampling techniques in contemporary pop also lags decades behind the academy.

Universities are incubators for the avant garde here in the US. From that perspective, a separate theory class in pop traditions might be seen as superfluous, to the extent it’s already subsumed under the academic theory curriculum. Most theory teachers use examples from pop songs.

  1. Theory — especially descriptive theory — can be an inherently conservative act, when it defines and draws boundaries around a body of practice. Sometimes descriptive theory becomes a constraint on innovation for some musicians and musical traditions, as it has in Iran and India. In other cases the tradition goes on as it was, ignoring the theorists.

But theory — especially generative theory — can drive innovation too. One practical reason for the hegemony of Western harmony theory in schools might be that it is especially fecund and stimulating for composers. Once you know it, it really helps generate new work, in a way that Indian music theory does not. And that takes us right back to cultural influences on what gets taught, to the degree that universities respond to market demands from students. Music students like to study topics that enhance their creativity, in the styles they like.

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#20

I’m sure you don’t mean harm but a statement like this seems wildly dismissive of a whole way of organizing sound

If any music other than what is dominant and forced on billions globally (even hardware/software are designed with western theory in mind) were as pervasive, you really think composers would suffer drought of ideas???

I’ll comment more but am kinda curious whether you employed hyperbole or really believe this

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