#218

Since you’re obviously referring to me, kindly identify the “supremacist tropes” I have “walked out” and been “called out” for. There may have been some reading comprehension challenges that need correcting.

#219

I assume that people can follow the thread of discussion. As you said above…the burden of proof is on you.

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#220

There may be some epistemological differences that inhibit communication. I begin from the proposition that race is an ideology that is used to divide people, and that it is a logical error to reduce individual artists to their skin color. It is a logical error to assign race to a musical category such as jazz.

When I point out that jazz is profoundly influenced by other music, I don’t see that as in any way diminishing jazz or jazz artists. What’s wrong with being influenced by your predecessors? This is normal humanity. How could it possibly be otherwise?

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#221

Interestingly I never ‘get’ the melody of giant steps, although I have kicked around with the changes a bit enough to see what’s going on…

Does ‘pattern 646’ apply to the head or the changes?

#222

Facts show we are all related and as you travel or interact with folks from all ethnic backgrounds our similarities only become more clear (despite a few differences in regional culture etc)

That said, we live in a reality where laws have been put in place (or are still being enforced as if they are in effect) to adversely affect individuals based entirely the color of their skin. This happens at all levels of society from infancy to the grave. In that context, ignoring the existence of “race” is at best naive and insensitive to people like me who are being harmed, and at worst DIRECTLY contributing to the system which elevates one group while oppressing/subjugating/erasing another.

Jazz today and down thru history has merged and adopted elements from many genres…but the first roots were african.

Many jazz artists explicitly arranged their music, their band, their album artwork in ways that (at the time) only a black person would have. Their music was a representation of ancient and modern blackness. This doesn’t mean other races couldn’t make great jazz (any more than jazz is a strictly american form) but erasing the african legacy in order to prop up the european classical connections is a violent, illogical and insidious act which flies in the face of the originators who made this style.

What you’re doing is equivalent to revising history by saying jazz began outside the USA. It doesn’t diminish Japanese bands, Polish bands, or jazz performers from anywhere else by saying…it started in the states.

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#223

Really grates on me the way you diminish things you don’t favor.

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#224

:point_up: true that, calling one ‘legit’(implying others not so, thus diminishing them), is a good example of a ‘supremacist trope’.

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#225

and yet the same person said…

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#226

Your argument that jazz is inherently black or inherently African is an expression of Jim Crow racial ideology. It replicates all the related logical errors of that ideology, and it leads to bad musicology and a profound misunderstanding of jazz history. It’s a huge mistake. I don’t know how to talk you down from that.

#227

Just absolutely speechless. I am not comfortable sharing this space with some kind of bizarre crypto-racist.

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#228

You don’t need to talk me down from anything. I AM black and all my immediate family are african (Nigeria)

I’ve studied jazz since i was kid and compared to music in the communities my parents come from…I know what past artists meant and I know what contemporary jazz artists who are black mean when they play every note and rhythm.

Denying the black part of jazz is flagrantly racist.

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#229

That slang comes from within jazz; it’s ironic self-deprecation. Labeling that a supremacist trope reveals a misunderstanding or lack of familiarity with jazz culture.

#230

:point_up: i have to point out, this is another ‘supremacist trope’ - attempting to redefine ‘race’ as something it’s not. they often use terms without actually knowing what they mean(for example the reinterpretation of ‘ad hominem’ which was disproven by me above). Finally, claiming what everything is ‘used’ for - this is also a habit of supremacists: redefine things based around some perceived ‘use-value’ to the opposing side(they are often capitalists to an extreme degree… I recall now: ElectricaNada, in the coronavirus thread, posted pics proudly of how much supply he began to hoard at the start of the pandemic :thinking:)… it’s what white-supremacists often do: redefine history, redefine terms, spread misinformation, based around their subjective interpretation of it, assuming that’s what was universally accepted as fact already.

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#231

I wondered how you’d try to side step that one

Impressive

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#232

Nobody’s done that in this thread though.

#233

I would have used the word nauseating.

#234

oh i’m familiar: but you definitely don’t respect jazz enough to be using it :wink:

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#235

Well

I guess I misread 99% of your comments.

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#236

You should really read Barbara Fields’ classic essay.

#238