Shall we completely ignore the massive influence of Afro-Caribbean folkloric music on US popular music starting in the late 19th century and still going (very) hard today? Leaving rhythm out of the discussion of music theory, how very European.

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I have studied Indian classical music for years. I think my gurujis are the best ICM performers currently working. I love them and the music more than you could possibly know. But the theory, with a few exceptions, is descriptive, not generative. It has largely served to make the classical tradition conservative, in the way I described above. The theory now functions to mark the borders of what is acceptable. This is dysfunctional, in that it inhibits and discourages innovation. The culture is such that some contemporary ICM musicians will now even pass their own compositions off as ancient inheritances in order to gain prestige for their work.

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It’s not ignored. There are any number of books and scholarly articles on the topic.

I did a bachelors in music theory.

The 18th century harmony part was just the foundation, or history, for a broader dialogue. Once you had the western context down everything at the next level was “can you find any pattern at all that helps other people think about how this music works”.

The limitations of our western & white histories around what the “canon” is and how to conceive of and constructively discuss music was a near daily subject.

most of the time when I hear musicians or music enthusiasts refer to music theory they’re talking about that first step.

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Yes. My point was that those books and articles and “tries by the academic crowd” came after the effect on US and European popular music. And further, these analyses are incomplete, partly due to the insistence on translating them into the music theory system of white male composers of the 17th century.

What are the deficiencies?

I hear pop musicians as taking some of these academic innovations and making them sound musical. Like, there’s Stockhausen, and then there’s In A Silent Way; there’s musique concrete, and then there’s Public Enemy; there’s sprechtstimme, and then there’s Kendrick Lamar. It’s like, the academics are doing basic science, and then the pop musicians turn that into iPhones.

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sorry to interject, but i’m a little confused by this read of ICM theory.

i’ve studied tabla for many years now and have gained so much from getting into the rhythmic structures and “rules,” in my playing as well as writing - but definitely never felt the rigidity of some concepts as a trap. now, like i said, it’s tabla… i know karnatic music is far stricter with its rules, but hindustani music - and my gurujis - always encouraged invention within the structures given, at least from my understanding.

as a system of improvisation, hindustani music is incredibly rich in generative ideas. sure, the tihai has strict rules - but it’s up to you to decide how it all falls into place. yes, there’s very specific language to use in kaida versus rela versus peshkar, but apart from understanding the vocabulary and syntax, there’s just so much room to make it your own.

i don’t doubt at all your experience in the music or your connection to your gurujis! it’s just really interesting our experiences are so different.

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in case the post is deleted let me just say…dang that is awesome!

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indeed. they exist for the ‘conservation’ of tradition(just my observation, though, nothing else meant by that here).

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That’s a nice explication of how it works. Back in the mid-20th century, innovations in harmony would originate with the legit guys, then you’d hear them smoothed out a little in movie scores, then the jazz pianists would take it, and finally it would work its way into popular song arrangements.

Which side of the clave should this phrase fall on? I’m working my way through The Clave Matrix right now, which is by far the most thorough treatment of the subject. First published in 2009. It’s the first book in a series which is not even complete, and acknowledges it’s own incompleteness. Didn’t stop the habanera or Daddy Yankee or anything in between though.
What is the ritual language phrase being spoken by the bata? How do you notate that? Serious players of this instrument all end up having to be initiated in order to continue their studies.
That’s not even getting into more obscure stuff like Abakua or Palo, and those are all in Cuba which is the most thoroughly studied.
I have the best text on Haitian drumming in English and it’s like a tiny pamphlet. And also acknowledges its great deficiencies.

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I don’t see any real difference in our experiences. I was talking above strictly about ICM theory’s influence on musical culture—specifically on how it builds walls between traditional and non-traditional. Plus a lot of it is just useless or inaccurate—Bhatkhande’s thaats, the 22 Shruti stuff, etc.

Then there are all the good parts. What I love about ICM is the focus on improvisation and freedom. I agree that the best musicians seem to be fine with just cutting loose and blowing.

And it saddens me to see people above ITT dismissing “white male” harmony on purely racist, sexist grounds. European harmony is one of mankind’s most beautiful creations, for me on a par with the Indian ragas and American jazz. Teaching it doesn’t oppress anyone. The notion that teaching something so beautiful is a manifestation of “white supremacy” seems an exceedingly weird premise to me.

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The video and Ewell’s article never says this; it’s more a call to recognise that what gets called “Music Theory” is the theory of a particular music. Treating a particular as a universal and dismissing other experience is a hallmark of colonialism and patriarchy.

Ewell does talk a little bit about the theory itself being racist, but I found that part of the argument unconvincing. To my mind the white/male supremacism is in the privileging of a particular music as the most worthy of study, and the structural/institutional reinforcement of this idea. He’s speaking I think mostly to others in his Music Theory world to try and widen their focus, but his piece got picked up as part of the culture wars.

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Man, sign up for a forum after ordering a norns, think to myself, “this looks like a fun place to tinker with exciting hardware, no way would my first post be about the racist origins of western music theory.” It’s a failure of my own imagination.

I share a bit of a path with some here, receiving an education at a US music school (University of the Arts in Philadelphia) before promptly not making music professionally for many years. The curriculum was jazz heavy and really, focused on bebop as the foundational element.

What I don’t see really being elevated here is the colonial vs racist underpinning that makes a certain type of notation and theory dominant. Maybe this is just semantics, but I think that’s an equally valid and important lens to view this under. We’re on a forum written, largely, in English, despite an international collaboration of creators with a shared interest. This might be unfortunate as English isn’t a particularly wonderful language to be an international standard, but it’s where we are. The violent history of colonialism and dominance that brought us here is understood and well beyond a forum post.
Still, I think learning “western/traditional american/white supremacist racist” music theory is useful is in an understanding that a large number of people have been trained to hear music in 4/4 12 tone equal temperament as ‘normal.’ This makes learning the patterns and concepts that begin there and extend through the 20th century and intermingle with American music history (not necessarily contemporary symphonic, but jazz, hip hop, rock, blues, modern folk, country, pop, experimental, basically everything in a post-historical context) useful as a language rather than as a theory. It also provides a framework to begin to understand styles and traditions that fall outside of that core and to notate where those differences are for personal education and group discussion. It’s problematic, just like communicating in English as a “standard,” as there’s an inherent bias in it: if 12 tone notation is right, then anything outside that is “wrong.” I don’t think that anymore than, from what I gather, anyone with the intellect to approach this subject. I do think, if you were raised on pop, rock, jazz, or “classical” music, you’ll likely be at least somewhat tuned to those rules, and would probably hear other traditions for their differences from your core understanding, so the utility of those “rules” probably will get you to a better understanding of other traditions more easily if you use that framework as a jumping-off point.

I agree wholeheartedly that western classical music theory (even when it’s mislabeled as contemporary music theory) is a framework for a particular kind of music. But, it’s raw tools that were developed for that purpose (notation, tuning and terminology) have significant utility in letting a diverse group of people use a language that can be modified to talk about other kinds of music.

The entirety of our lived experience, particularly as others have pointed out in the US, is a history built on racism and colonialism. It’s a brutal history, and in an age of split-second news cycles, it’s one that so many people are so quick to forget, or willfully reject. Being deeply self aware of where you are in the system, and acknowledging your privilege if you have it, and using that privilege to lift up others who need your help is a noble path. I don’t think that should include rejecting the language you know or the utility or beauty it may have. You do nobody any good if you blink yourself out of existence on realizing the weight of the history that brought you to be.

This is an amazing and important conversation. Western music theory is a system, and it’s a system that has produced amazing works of art, but it is not “music theory,” nor is it necessarily (like English) the best framework to analyze music. Still, there is no reason to feel guilt for being trained in that framework.

Anyhow, I hear norns is cool. Looking forward to checking it out :slight_smile:

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It seems to me that Phil Ewell and Adam Neely are both deeply invested in western music theory. I think this is important - they are being self-critical of their own field.

I find Indian classical music extremely generative, I can’t overstate this. I’m not formally trained in music, but have read a little bit around the topic, and got into Bernard Bel’s amazing papers around the time setting in the Bol Processor https://bolprocessor.org . This was/is a major influence on TidalCycles and I think is probably the main reason why people find it interesting.

Western classical music is partly interesting because it is written down, making it possible to analyse and share on the page. This also is what makes it uninteresting, when people mistake staff notation as representing the whole music experience, for example by thinking you can understand dance music without dancing to it, or by thinking the standard pattern is in 12/4 because it’s easier to write it down that way.

I see a lot of human culture go out of the window this way - rich processes develop, some aspect of those processes get formalised and written down, and this creates a huge blind spot for what doesn’t get written down. This is why we’re left with such an impoverished idea about what a ‘pattern’ is in music tech, for example. It happened with the Jacquard device in weaving too - some aspect got formalised and automated, and the majority of weaving techniques gets lost.

But then you almost never see staff notation in music technology. Even though people go on about ‘music theory’ all the time, western classical music theory doesn’t really have anything to do with the vast majority of contemporary music practice in the west, which is far more influenced by the many musics of the African diaspora. Furthermore I think the flexibility of the music environments we have now make them much more like orally transmitted traditional music, than brittle score-based music and the hierarchical/patriarchal structures of music schools.

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I grew up in a European country with its own (or a multitude of) non-12tet tradition(s). Both Western tradition and non-Western tradition were and are prevalent. To the best of my understanding and experience “normalcy” is mostly brought by the context and not from any particular training or just plain exposure.

Unless you have perfect hearing, which is should be called hearing memory or hearing obsessiveness.

Especially in a time and age when our access to a vast amount of different sounds and music is the standard, I honestly don’t see how Western tradition can be anything but “one way of looking at things”.

I’ll refrain from saying more on the subject for now, as I’m interested to read more of what other people have to say.

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I think any piano roll based sequencer is a very modest distinction from traditional notation. I’m actually very interested in studying other methods of noting modern electronic music and wonder if a modified version of staff notation could be exciting. Even tracker interfaces convey much of the same information but are adapted to provide additional information about playback. We have scala files and other ways of losing alternative scales and we have plenty of ways of generating music with rhythm and harmonic structure that extends beyond the piano roll, but it’s hard to say that notation at least, from western theory isn’t alive and well in music tech.

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I don’t think western classical music theory has any monopoly on grids!

Not in the least. I’m being reductive in conflating notation with theory. There are two threads, one much more significant than the other. But most grids are symmetrically distributed which *favors chromatically tempered music. Doesn’t mean that it’s the only path or even the right one, but I think a large chunk of modern sequencers favor 12 tone chromatic music that rhythmically snaps to those grids. Not all