Yeah, I can see that.
I do like to talk things through and see what people think.

edit: oh! and for the soccer metaphor: I just meant in terms of fooling the referee. Obviously there’s a lot of running lol)

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That’s a good question.
I don’t think so. Or maybe the metaphor isn’t as obvious as when we’re talking about classical music…or American football.

(and it might be worth saying again, the only value I see in discussing these metaphors is to try to tease out the elements that are leaned on by people to endorse an industrial organization. As if that’s the ideal way to organize people. Just like how specific inferences about the natural world were used to justify racism (ie people just had to keep to their domain and everything would be “in balance” like nature was thought to be (I just rewatched All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace, so that’s fresh in my mind). I’m saying people build bridges between disciplines to justify bad practices, and I think classical music is a model…like inference about the natural world is a model.) Also if the link I’m making between industrial organizaion and white supremacy seem tenuous, then maybe what I’m saying doesn’t seem to belong in this thread. But I’m working under the assumption that that link is clear.)

A: I think coordinated effort or central direction alone isn’t the insidious aspect of what I’m talking about.

Coordinated effort
+
specialization
+
limited decision-making
+
separation from “thinking/concept” and “doing”

And all those things culminating in a dramatic undeniably powerful experience for the listener is what gives classical music it’s potency as a blue-print for industrial organization to be the “ideal way to organization people”. Or rather, this is how you organize people if you want to get “Anything Worth Doing” done.

Obvs I think great ideas can come from the bottom-up (to simplify it), and people can create worthwhile things/moments without a central detached genius.

Classical music just doesn’t highlight those things. Different music(s) highlight those things.


re funding: point taken! (and yeah I was thinking public funding…but in the UK.)

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I don’t want to necessarily speak for @Angela but to qualify some of her statements, we’ve been directly (or indirectly) involved and around a lot of contemporary music (Darmstadt et al), so the “stereotype”, as such, is not an uninformed caricature, but rather based on first/second-hand experience of the overarching “classical” music tradition.

For me, a big part of that is creative agency and hierarchy. This starts getting much more philosophical, but for me it’s important to engage in a music and art practice that has diminished hierarchy and distributed agency. And, certainly, there is no shortage of contemporary (classical) music that challenges those notions, for my tastes, it is still “the work of a composer” as being “interpreted by performers” (to use a broad brush stroke here, for simplicity).

And I guess on a more personal note, I’ve been involved and performed in high-functioning new music contexts, and mid-functioning “band” contexts (mathy/noise-rock), and for me, the detail and nuance in the latter was generally an order of magnitude above the former. (e.g. rehearsing the same set list, every day, for months, vs “three rehearsals and a premiere”). Your mileage may vary.

Which is what circles back to the agency/hierarchy thing. I would argue that that structure itself, carries some meaning, and implicit context.

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Ah right, I see. Yeah, there’s nothing to say this is exclusive to European classical music …or the stereotype thereof ; ) .

Your experience of gamalan acutally tracks. There’s a strong caste system in Indonisia (stronger before, but still there). Yeah, there’s nothing to say these types of structures aren’t found in other music. I feel like there was just a logic puzzle misunderstanding between us. Something like “a not-not isn’t an is” lol

I dig what you said about the stereotype too. So often things become simplified/distilled/distored to be transferable…like what I’m saying is happening conceptually between organization in music and organization of society. Mike Bloomberg not being an engineer won’t at all effect his understanding how a company should work like a well oiled machine.
It’s the stereotype that’s carried over and used as a blue-print/justification/metaphor.

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Sorry to go on about it but I think Ursula Franklin throws a lot of light on this discussion re social structures of control. Here’s the first part of her lecture series on the real world of technology:

https://ia802801.us.archive.org/10/items/the-real-world-of-technology/part-1.mp3

(It’s also available in book form.)

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I think the purpose of the discussion isn’t to condemn a type of music. Great ideas are inexorably linked to those with bad intentions, etc. I don’t think a complete divorce is possible. I’m just super paranoid about the bad ideas sneaking in through the back door without me noticing.

If there is a point maybe it’s that talking about this stuff helps dislodge the monopoly it has in pedagogy, and help shift perspectives enough so that it’s not just “The Music” to which there’s “Other Music” in relation to it.

Kind of like how the phrase “there needs to be room for x at the table” still presumes supremacy/universality of the host’s position/status.

And in with regard to my own life:
Superheros are deeply problematic, yet I have more Batman comics than of any other kind.

This is what Alan Moore said about them in 2019:

The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. … I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race.

If someone asked me if we should stop making superhero books I’d say no. For the same reasons (nuance, potential, beauty, etc.)

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I play pattern based music when I play my djembe. No paper or computer involved.

Ghanaian percussion ensembles have roles/specializations and even a bit of hierarchy.

Something about the pattern-based nature of it, though. It changes the relationship of memory to the music. Memory plays less of a role. The movements seem to operate on a more instinctual level. I’m not really “thinking” about my part so much as feeling it.

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In another forum I frequent, the topic of using 7-bit MIDI integers as the default mode of music representation came up, with more than one person arguing this was acceptable. Perhaps this deserves its own thread, but I wonder if those of us who develop systems for electronic music are pushing this discussion to “music theorists” when we should be shouldering more of the blame.

What are the default examples we use in our systems?

How do we enable users to freely explore different approaches to music?

If we don’t provide affordances for exploring non-mainstream musical approaches, are we passively—or actively—marginalizing other musical forms?

As one example, in my system I provide relatively easy access to / affordances for using the Scala tuning library, and yet the current default demos are in C minor with 12-TET. It’s a small step (for sure), but I’ll be changing this soon.

Yes agreed, Ewell is a music theorist criticising his own field. We should do the same.

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Yes, but he’s using theory he really doesn’t understand to critique his own field. He seems completely unaware of the flaws in the theorists he cites, and thus replicates those flaws in his own arguments.

That sounds like a quest for the golden hammer. I’d rather lots of idiosyncratic tools.

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That sounds really nice in theory, assuming many such tools don’t simply reinforce dominant paradigms in idiosyncratic ways. Outside of this, I think that general purpose tools could be more effective in calling attention to features that support a diversity of approaches to music making.

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Yes definetly. Imagine techno if those 80’s Roland boxes had defaulted to waltz time instead.

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I’m being devil’s advocate here, I do agree that looking at defaults and default examples is a good move… But maybe it should be more about getting more people involved in writing the examples, than diversifying the examples on their behalf? I associate alternative tunings with a certain kind of computer music academic, and without taking a collaborative approach, applying ethnomusicology to computer music language design could end up being a stumble into cultural appropriation… and it’s not as though white people own c minor.

I think a good starting point in general would be encouraging/supporting diversity of language makers as well as users. I think making space for the next generation of language makers and creative users (through helping provide funding, training, mentorship, etc) is a more exciting direction than trying to make existing tools more universal. We need more things like DIN!

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If I had to pick one critique of the naive CRT/anti-racist ideology on display in Ewell and ITT, it would be this one:

A great read, I wasn’t familiar with Adolph Reed Jr. However, I think it would be naive to think the positions in the Reed publication could be used seriously to broadly critique Ewell’s talk. I read through both fairly closely (though I certainly could read through them both again). My conclusion is that they in fact have many congruences and are largely complementary.

I think we’d be on shaky ground trying to apply Reed’s points, which are about broader contemporary movements and their outcomes (the antiracist movement’s ideological distancing from labor-centric politics, thus easily subsumed by neoliberalism), to Ewell’s talk which is about the quite narrow domain of music theory.

Perhaps Ewell’s talk resonated so strongly because music theory hasn’t really had someone bring up these issues in this context, I don’t know. His comments about the ubiquity of Schenker apologists is on point and sadly unsurprising. Broadly, he seems quite skeptical of neoliberalisms and seems more traditionally lefty.

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A more specific critique of the theorists that Ewell evokes (Feagin and Bonilla-Silver):

http://www.columbia.edu/~aw2951/RaceCentrism.pdf

I have to think about this more to add something more meaningful, but I saw this video the other day and yeah, I really have no idea why I was even taught figured bass at Berklee. And it wasn’t like we just touched on it either- we were required two semesters of “Tonal Harmony” which included extensive figured bass analysis. In a shocking twist, it taught me absolutely nothing except how to use figured bass, which is completely useless to a professional musician in 2020, or yknow, the past 100 years.

I do feel though that counterpoint is a very useful skill to learn and study.

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Yep, sitting in the UK, where society is very clearly stratified by class, the close relationship between class and race is a given. Still race and and resurgent white supremacy is an issue which deserves discussion in its own right. It’s a bit strange that Ewell never seems to write about class, but the topic at hand is white supremacy within an area which (in the UK at least) working class people generally don’t participate in at all. For an in-depth discussion of class, I probably wouldn’t turn to a western music theorist.

If anyone’s looking for a UK perspective I’m enjoying Akala’s book Natives: Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire. This is probably a good interview about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w303dRDpgRM

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Advanced Jazz reharmonization has no parallel that I can think of in classical music. Yes there are some early similarities in the C19th, but Jazz musicians went way beyond that. Obviously blues harmony is completely different to Classical, so there’s that. The innovations of free Jazz players like Coltrane. Even the ways in which Jazz musicians recontexualize chords for stuff like 7ths/9ths/13ths, and the various ways in which these are flattened/sharpened. A lot of the linear harmonic thinking you find in Jazz.

I like classical music and I have no problem with Western Musical Theory, but Jazz is it’s own thing.

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