Laptops to me do not feel like instruments. The entire experience, from the aesthetic to the methods of interaction, are perfected for functional software but don’t allow (me) any type of self expression.

This is very possibly because I work on one all day doing design, and removing that work mindset from the object is hard for me.

The word “object” is interesting to me. I enjoy nice objects. How they look and feel. What they weigh. The quality of the build. If it allows for fun/self expression as well it is an extra.

This mix of being a lovely and minimal piece of design, a slab of metal, and a sound computer sold norns for me. The minimalism brings mystery, the lack of controls lessen discoverability, and the affordance of the device is to an extent unlimited. This combination goes against common design principles (which can upset jobbing designers who value traditional UX over visceral attraction), what we try to achieve normally, which in a way to me makes it feel like a piece of art.

The same can be said of the grid. It is literally covered in signifiers but the discoverability is almost non existent, because the user needs to define it.

I can look at the norns for long periods of time, just look at it, and get enjoyment from the process of studying the design.

This is why I would not buy an Organelle. Not a bash, I just find it ugly.

The norns and similar are, for me, ways to use a computer as an instrument without the distraction of a modern fully featured computer. The Teletype intrigued me for the same reason, trying to see if it’ll work in my tiny rack. You get the logical capabilities of a computer, the almost unlimited potential, without the size and distractions.

And then (I could go on but am on a phone so writing this is hard) you have the interaction. Keyboard and trackpad don’t do it for me. I want physical controls. I want to hold the dial, feel the button depress. It’s very important to me.

Laptops can do everything and more all the hardware can do, but it doesn’t give you the same experience. It’s why we still listen to vinyl, the process is a ritual. Making a nice coffee is a ritual. Taking the time to build your rack, choose the module, assemble it, plug in the cables. All part of a physical ritual which takes the making of sound into a different space. At least for me.

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For me, any live coding using Tidal or GUI heavy work with max or pd is ideal on a laptop. There are paths that these tools lead you down that are somewhat unique. I’m not usually a fan of DAWs for performing, but they are great for post production after the music has been made.

Pi Sound, Norns, and Organelle are ideal single use computers that can be reprogrammed and focused to do a musical task. They are fun boxes that I would incorporate into a larger hardware setup with mixer and effects.

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funnily enough i’m on lines right now because i’m having a bad computer day. too many things wanting to update, video editor playback being choppy for no apparent reason, notifications chiming in annoyingly, and of course the ever present allure of the internet.

even on a good computer day though, making music on one has never felt as fluid as using a dedicated device. there are lots of little things that add up to a hiccupy process, like the time it takes to close a live set and load an alternate version, or alphabetically scrolling through way too many plugins to find something. (i love uad but you’re forced to have their entire bundle on your system even if 90% of it is forever in demo mode…bleh.)

i think they also offer a feeling of limitlessness that lands you in frustrating places once you approach max cpu, whereas dedicated hardware’s built-in limitations mean you’re almost never lagging, glitching, crashing.

best of both worlds though…there are so many things i do with a mouse and a screen that would be dreadful without them.

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Just had a lovely 2 hour jam over the internet with @pirxthepilot using Jamtaba with our NINJAM server. I played a Kontakt instrument called Colours from Slate and Ash that plays quite expressively with my Linnstrument.

I really needed a general purpose computer to pull that off. It was a lovely way to start my Sunday.

Thanks again @pirxthepilot!

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I’ve never made any music I like by playing it.

I think that may be another factor in why I’m happy with a laptop. Perhaps I’m not looking for an instrument?

This has sort of been touched on above, in people commenting about multi-tracking and DAWs and such, but thought I’d say it a bit more explicitly.

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Ok, last post I’ll make about this, them I’m done. After taking about a day off from this I feel like I’m coming across like some of the people I despised from other forums. So sorry for that.

Let me briefly explain my path to Lines…

I’m a guitar player of 30 years, have played lots of experimental music and rock in Chicago mostly. Been into synths since the late 90’s but in the last year I decided to make the jump to modular. Spent a lot of time on other forums, being extremely frustrated with peoples’ attitudes of general gear fetishism over rationality and for the most part, a lack of really thoughtful conversation. Someone directed me here after knowing I was getting into modular. In general this forum has been been top notch, some really nice conversations, pretty much the opposite of most of the other forums.

I started seeing all of these post about ‘Norns’, ‘Monome’, etc… I had no idea what this was, but I was generally curious. The first obvious thing to do, for me, is to go to the source: the website. I went a few different times, and as I’ve already mentioned, I left really confused each time towards what it was I was looking at. That’s fine. I can’t claim to understand everything! I then posted something here a few days back on a super beginner Norms thread, to the effect of, can someone just sum up what I’m looking at in a nutshell? Maybe that came across as a bit trolling, but I was serious. I really just wanted to know and I just got referred to all of these forum posts with a bit of snark. At that point I think I started becoming defensive and it went downhill after that, admittedly. I was a bit put off because I had had such great experience thus far and then as soon as I even mildly questioned this ‘mysterious company’ (haha) I was met with a bunch of resistance.

What I didn’t really know until very recently is how engrained Monome is into Lines. Someone I know mentioned Lines was started for the purpose of talking about Monome and then grew into something larger? I had no idea, I just thought it was a cool forum about synths and experimental music making process. After knowing that I realized I was stirring the hornet’s nest here.

However, in my defense, what pushed it over the edge was this quote:

That pretty much confirmed notions of exclusiveness. The word ‘exclude’ is used in the quote. I don’t know how much more literal that can be. To me to that attitude is exactly what I had sensed through my first few visits to the website. And that’s fine, its not my company, you can do what you want… But the disconnect comes from the fact that everyone says its ‘open’ and ‘welcoming’ with a sense of ‘community’. I don’t know why would you exclude someone who call a ‘drive by’, when at some point, everyone is a potential ‘drive by’ when they are a noob to it all? This is what made me take offense. It really just comes off like, ‘if you don’t know, then you aren’t cool enough to know.’ It seemed to contradict the overall vibe of Lines in general that I had experienced thus far.

So, that’s where I was coming from. Thanks to all of the people who have written back with a sense of care, trying to understand where I was coming from. Sorry I didn’t get to my PM’s earlier. Lines is still pretty rad.

Cheers.

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@909one

i’m going to answer some of this stuff in a PM, but i agree that it will be nice to move on from this theme.

well… i don’t think the question of accuracy or hyperbole actually came up in my posts at least. like many nerdish or engineer-y people, i find the idea ‘marketing’ kind of instinctively off-putting, but have learned to just think of it as meaning: how do you describe something you’ve made to the general public.

and i do think that this questions is kinda central to open-function music devices. case in point, when you say:

that seems like something worth thinking about. after all, there are 4 other instruments described in the manual, and fully half of the product brief copy is devoted to pointing out the device’s utility as a platform for custom puredata, supercollider, csound patches. graphic design is obviously a big part of it - the panel explicitly describes a single function.

(i also hope it’s clear that i’m not deliberately excluding O_C, terminal tedium and other stuff in the eurorack space.)

and that’s a good chunk of what i wanted to consider with this topic. i’m glad that @909one brought up the question of product discovery, and it made me curious: what exactly is it that makes people gravitate to one sound computer over another? for people who only want a development platform, i can make a pretty good guess. my extremely belated realization is for most people, the chain of considerations is probably quite different, and starts with the perception of some primary and immediate function that the device can perform? (communicated by graphic design, &c) just guessing here.

in other words: i think at this point we all have an innate understanding of the concept of Turing Completeness, and the fact that digital processors are basically interchangeable. IMO this becomes even more so once you consider devices that share a general-purpose operating sytem under the hood. so there are other differentiating qualities that matter to different people (even beyond obvious things like compute capacity, I/O bandwith &c.)

and i’m super appreciative of your thoughts on the matter!

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I’d hate to presume I speak for this community, so apologies for any implication that I could or would do that. I have also apologized for offending @909one.

My opinion is my own, and that’s all it is. Not my proudest moment either.

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I own both Norns and Nebula 2. I bought them both intending to program and extend them. I had good knowledge of PD going in but zero knowledge of LUA or SC.
Now Nebula is up for sale and Norns is central to my workflow. My granular looping is now handled in Mangle. I’ve learned a good chunk of LUA and am digging into SC. I’ve been able to customize some other folks scrips to my personal taste/need. I feel like I’m finally learning how to do computer music and my music is going in new and interesting directions with each new instrument I put on Norns.

Nebula failed to launch for me. I had decent knowledge going in but struggled to get things to load. Nothing was easy. There was no community to ask or borrow code from. Nothing novel was introduced for the platform. I’d seen it all before. It never felt inspired.

On paper the Neb looked like a much better bet for me. But in the end, marketing aside, community, support and creative people sharing very creative things won the day.

These are the energies that magnetized me toward the single function instrument and they are the energies that will likely fuel much of my growth going forward.

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Norns has been my second venture into the world of SPC (first was about 10 years ago with the ‘minicommand’, a sort of programmable controller for the elektron machinedrum).

Anyway, as someone who does a little bit of Python for their day job (climate science), I thought the time was right to try and cross over my programming life into my music life and picked up a Norns.
Got to say, it feels like I’ve bitten off more than I can chew, a lot of the time!

I LOVE a lot of the scripts that have already been made for Norns (been using cranes in a lot of compositions recently), but I’m desperate to develop something of my own and contribute something back to the community. Trouble is, the rare opportunities when I can actually sit down and go back through the studies (again and again), I seem to always end up at the same place - a few hours have drifted by and I’ve not written any music, or made anything that actually works :expressionless:

So perhaps SPC are not for everyone. Between work, family, writing music + touring, maybe finding that extra time to develop scripts is just not going to happen for me? I’m happy using Norns with other peoples scripts (for now), but cant shake the niggling feeling that I’m not experiencing it’s true value…

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At the risk of drifting off topic - even those of us who can happily write scripts for the Norns don’t always get time and attention space to work on them :slight_smile: I have a couple of projects on the go that still aren’t in decent enough shape to share - and I’ve had them on the go since before Christmas :frowning: .

However like you I happily use other peoples scripts, I also hack hybrid things together - my offering for a Disquiet Junto recently was based on Looms and a Supercollider fragment I made - I wouldn’t give it to anyone else to use but did the job for me.

The trick in this day and age of things clamouring for our attention is not to feel guilty. We are all here because we love this stuff, it’s great when people contribute and when we can’t we are still using things people made. For me that’s almost as important as the making stuff - music and software both feel like a conversation to me (& I know that other people feel differently) and if no one is listening or using them I don’t see the point of making them…

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For me it’s more a matter of treating my laptop like an SPC (during performance) anyways, with the screen dimmed and it off to the side, often out of view.

There’s also times when I would like to use my “computer” but don’t want the overhead of taking my laptop + power + soundcard + etc… to a gig. So that adds a new use case for something like a norns where I would otherwise not think to use my laptop.

And for smaller/cheaper things (rpi/bela) it also means making standaone ‘embedded’ things that are for single projects, where I don’t need to worry about it going out of date or stopping to work after a while.

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That’s usually how it happens for me.

I decided on Teletype because it could do Euclidean patterns and beyond, and it replaced 3 other modules for clock/trigger processing. Before that, I had kind of dismissed the idea of putting “a computer” in my rack.

I went for ER-301 because I wanted a flexible delay/looper/sampler like Tyme Sefari but with a better sample rate – also because it’s good at TZFM and sample mapping and many other things, but it was the delay application that first piqued my interest. (It’s not what I mostly use it for now though!)

And I first considered an Organelle when ORAC came to light and I thought, “if it can run Rings, it’s not just a neat toy with funny wooden buttons.” (I didn’t wind up getting one after all.)

In each case it was the idea of a specific function that would be better on an SPC than in the even more specific device(s) I already had; the added flexibility was a huge bonus though.

I’ve been using my MPC1000 for years now, and I guess that qualifies as a single purpose computer.

For me, I like it because it never changes. It’s an instrument, like a guitar, or a flute, or a hardware synthesizer. It is the same from year to year, I know exactly how to use it, and there are no software updates to remove features / add new features / introduce bugs. I can do most things without even looking at its tiny little screen.

I also work on computers all day, and used to be heavily into using a laptop to make sound, mostly using Reaktor. I got fed up of dragging patch cables with a mouse, so I bought a 0-Coast and then a small Make Noise Eurorack system. Eurorack has a similar problem to a laptop with “endless possibilities”, whereas the 0-Coast is a perfect, self contained instrument. This realisation has led me into looking more at stand alone, yet patchable, instruments from Ciat-Lonbarde and Lorre-Mill, where the instrument is the interface.

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100% agree on this - it’s way to easy to ‘dream about possibilities’.
even as a developer (more so?), I fall prone to this - I need to remind myself of the time and motivation required to make possibilities a reality.
so either: It has to already do what I want (or I wait for someone to already have doneit !) or I evaluate what skills, time, motivation Im going to need… and is it ‘worth it’, will i enjoy doing it?


I do think all the SPCs still have quite high technical barriers. It’s still too easy to start getting technical issues that are all too familiar with computers, and the programming has a very steep learning curve for many (above nominal ‘tweaking’)

this is no criticism, it’s just a tough nut to crack…

but I’m still looking around for inspiration, to see perhaps where it might go, to make things easier for end-users to build ‘custom’ things, without having to become programmers.

in this area I think the Zoia is interesting
I think the grid is a bit write-once, read-only, and it’d be nice if 3rd parties could add new modules.
but those are solvable, if non-programmers find it enticing building things with it.

partly the ‘generic’ UI issue?, but I think it goes deeper.
there is something really nice about having an instrument that just ‘IS’ .

but, I guess this comes down to ‘single purpose computer’ , how single purpose do we mean?
If you use a Bela to build a custom string instrument, like this…


this is very single purpose, very personal… something you build a ‘relationship’ with.

but (eg) an organelle that can switch patches?
you start getting into issues of its ‘identify’ changes every time you use a different patch … coming from different developers, often they have different metaphors/workflows.
and I think some people have more or less issues with this aspect

of course, you can (should?) alleviate this by trying to stick to fewer patches…just because you can have 1000’s of patches loaded, doesn’t mean you should - its fine to just use one great patch!
which brings us back full circle to @Starthief point about having ONE thing done well.

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this is a very on point as well as heartfelt thread. lots of thought being voiced.

music as solidarity is always so affecting. the community a device inspires is reason enough to use it.

then there’s beauty. seeing a natural formation for the first time that you don’t understand at all is pretty breathtaking. monome echoes an almost identical feeling. design matters.

thanks for the view, @tehn.

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I wonder if “marketing” norns as the mlr box might help make it more accessible for non-developers - rely an archetype rather than mystery.

I think this already is happening in the video on the monome website and in the word-of-mouth I see/hear! I don’t know if I would want to give up the open-endedness of the current copy for more concreteness; I like the dream.

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i apologize for contributing to the thread derail (about marketing) as the SPC topic is equally important (i haven’t had a minute to throw in my view, it’ll take a long time to write possibly…)

but— we’ve always been fundamentally against traditional marketing, or even perceiving any aspect of our practice as marketing. we were (and continue to be) fundamentally artists, and view our “work” as sharing. commerce is a byproduct— by which we have been able to support ourselves (we feel very fortunate for this) and continue to make objects which have sparked some great collaborations and conversations.

so (for us) a video is an opportunity to share inspiration about why an instrument exists. a newsletter is perhaps terse and opaque and dimly poetic yet warmly welcoming.

the intention behind a machine might be ascertained by where the energy has been spent. industrial design and materials and touch and tactility. collaboratively-developed open-source software infrastructure that encourages participation and learning. extensive tutorials with an ambitious goal of inviting non-programmers towards knowledge to build their dream instruments.

we listen.

we don’t think about marketing. we just do what we believe in.

certainly we could be better about inviting people in, but i’ve floundered at how to do that without it feeling like, well, marketing. would be very happy to discuss this further if anyone wants to DM

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So, I took the time to read everything here, first to have a sense of where people were taking this thread (it effectively went into various directions, which means it was a good idea for a topic). Also, to make sure I wasn’t actually rehashing other people’s thoughts and making additionnal noise for no reason. This was very interesting, pretty much as usual on lines.

Now there’s a few things I’d like to add, which are my own understanding, both of monome norns as “GAS by mystery and mystique inducing machine” and as an SPC and why norns over, say, organelle or bella, and also, why “marketting” for lack of a better word (I like the idea raised by @zebra to call it “meaning”, so I’d say : marketting as “how Monome wants us to understand Norns”) so why “marketting” might influence this decision beyond practical criterias.

There’s an elephant in the room in this debate, that has been brought up by @zebra (who’s good at spotting elephants in the room), but wasn’t much discussed afterward : Norns, of all the SPC’s options discussed in this topic, is the most expensive one. I bring this up because, up until very recently, most SPCs were out of my league, either due to cost (even Organelle was too expensive for me) or learning curves / design choices (Bella, PiSound, Axoloti and other likeminded barebones style SPC). So, even though I could perceive very clearly the appeal of having an SPC for all the reasons already mentionned above about what we know our mind can acheive anyway anyhow (that is : a lot of things really), and how creating the specific context for our mind to effectively acheive it are just two completely different things in a real life context where we’re battling with our emotions, our lives, our instincts, our understanding of things, and the list goes on. So I was on that list of “computer musician by default” even though I had a few hardware options over the years, I could feel the weight of that setup and how it was limiting some of my creative input although I wish it didn’t and I could from time to time push that setup further by sheer force of creating artificial boundaries and treating the computer as a “virtual SPC”.

But then I could buy some stuff. And of all the SPC I bought Norns, which is, then again, the most expensive option. To answer @909one 's point about that, was there some mystique “in the know gear” to it ? Yeah sure there might be. But about this two points : Mystery, mystique, however you call it, in design isn’t NECESSARILY a bad thing, it can be, but it doesn’t have to. Design is provocative, and mystery can lead to a change in perception, this forum knows well about it, with the grid having become such an ubiquitous interface when it could have (and did) suffer the exact same criticisms about opacity when it first appeared. So there’s that about design and mystery, it’s not all bad. Then also, and that’s where I’d like to bring my own interpretation of @jasonw22 's badly perceived argument which I think should not be dismissed so quickly : This mistery, if you think only self-convincing fools cool-kids-wannabe will perceive it as a “plus”, also acted on you as repulsive. This repulsion you might have felt as 100% negative, to my eyes, is also Monome’s tranquille and peaceful way of telling you, and I can understand coming from marketting and design you might not be used to this, that INDEED YOU MIGHT NOT NEED THIS THING. It might even feel a bit cheesy said like that, but Norns comes from their heart which is rare for gear, it’s not just a piece of hardware, it’s their singular (in all the meanings of singular as at it’s core monome is just two persons) vision of what a piece of hardware could be, you don’t have to stretch too far to see there’s also a political, philisophical, emotional stance in the design of Norns specifically. And because it’s their way of seeing it, and because they’re a bit poetic like that, twisted and convoluted like that, they thought they’d also “market” it like that. It’s honest. It’s just who they are. Mystique if you will.

Now back to my point, why the hell did I buy this instead of an Organelle ? This will connect to a question that arrose initially before Norns even got out. There’s a topic on lines, where Brian asks what norns “is”. I didn’t participate at the time because well frankly, I didn’t know. What I did know however, is how deeply I connected with this forum, how fascinated I was by how people like @zebra @glia @Rodrigo @markeats @tehn and so many others perceived what “computer music” and music in general and stretching a bit further, what life in general, should be or aspire to, that I felt very strongly Norns could embody what I’d call “multiplicity through simplicity”. There were a few very strong and pragmatic arguments for it (i/o, lots of USB ports, small footprint etc. people named them all already) but still : it was fucking expensive so surely there must be another reason.

Now here I’m gonna give a very personnal reason, a reason that I think relate to this “we do it how we like to do it, “marketting” included” aspect : Monome is not trying to scale. They don’t want to. It’s not a desire they have. And you know what, in our current landscape, it’s quite a struggle I can tell you that. Even moreso when I’m pretty convinced that, should they want to, they could. So it’s realy down to them defining a way to both be who they are AND a company that makes gear. And the thing is I think not wanting to scale they had two options, make the compromises on the materials / design / and take less time to think about their finished products, or just say “well we’re very sorry that it’s so damn expensive, and we’re gonna put all the schematics out there, and all the code out there, so that maybe some other people can take care of making it affordable, but we’re just gonna go with our vision.”. You can blame them for that but I don’t because I connect to this vision. So in one sentence because I wrote too many already : I paid this higher price to allow monome not to scale, because I think that for a company that does what they do, the way they do it, it’s this price in our society. Our society is broken like that but it’s not monome’s fault. And because they’re not trying to scale, that’s the beauty of it, they don’t have to sell too many, they don’t have to fake a certain attitude to appeal to an “everyone” that (I think) doesn’t exist.

Now, about that design for an SPC, (it worked for the monome grid back in the days). Because it says nothing, shows nothing, and because the first part of the description is elusive, what I felt was not : I need this. What I felt was “I need to go read about this at the source”. And I did. I read this forum for hours and it was super nice. And Norns by design pushed me to do this, just like the blank monome grid by design pushed me to do this, in a way that no other design that I can think of pushes me to do this (other designs just want me to go watch Tutorials or read labels on the faceplate).

Which made me realise (and we’re full circle back on the original topic, DAMN !) what “Norns” is to me as an SPC :

“Norns is an ongoing conversation”

Specifically an ongoing conversation with lines. It’s a self contained box, that allows me, like I did a few times already and will continue to do, to not bring my laptop somehwere, and have people on lines still talking to me expect THROUGH MUSIC. Discussing relationship to music through a simple open ended device and interface, telling me that maybe I should stop and focus on this particular sampling method, on this particular FX, or maybe spend a little time building presets that I love by just turning a knob on planet system, and I can recognize them through process, and it feels like not only am I making music in weird places without the distraction of the internet, I’m making it WITH SOMEONE, and it so happens that there are things on lines I can’t find in other communities so yes, it is definitely a community thing.

I realized after a few weeks using it how the stripped down interface, screen, label-less knobs, was a blessing to only “hear” and “feel” what the coders / users had to tell me when I use Norns. It’s a computer you can forget about, it lets its content shine and I’m in awe of how distinctive and playful what this community has to offer is. Just like focussing on a book is that much easier than reading on a tablet.

Are all the things I just described just as easily possible with other SPCs ? Very likely. But C&G has this “cool” factor and it definitely feels more like traditionnal business (they make me feel of a smaller Teenage Engineering although I realize I’m not even sure they’re actually smaller) with them, so it’s a bit of a wild west when it comes down to knowing who they are, what’s their intent, what’s the ideological choice behind their designs and so on, and they also bring a lot more people and I like a contained community. It doesn’t mean I want to exclude people by design, it means I like knowing that the first barrier of entry is actual curiosity, a desire to UNDERSTAND, not “what it does” but “why do it like that at all”, when I know that what comes behind this curiosity is incredibly deep and meaningful and goes (to my eyes at least) much further than simple gear / tools for music-making.

And frankly, I’ll just close because I’m getting tired of reading myself talking, but I think it says it all of the intellectual sanity and perspective of this forum and of Monome that it’s one of the minds behind the code-design of Norns that created this topic, which surely is challenging the very idea that anyone could / should actually “need” their own machine. That’s what I love about this place.

Edit : this was all written before @tehn 's answer and put on hold so… Sorry for the overlap. And if Brian actually feels like I’ve put ideas and intentions behind their design that aren’t there, I’ll happily stand corrected, but nonetheless, this is what Norns as a design, Monome as a company, and Lines as a community made me understand, wether it was their intent or not :slight_smile:

TL;DR : Well really sorry I’m shit at making things simple.

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