#44

Yeah, for the record my goal isn’t really in trying to bash these products, more interested in the psychology of it. I’m a designer and I work at a marketing firm so maybe Im just sensitive to this stuff. All I can tell you is what I felt what when I tried to learn about these products for the first time, I came away more confused after viewing the website than enlightened or excited. I deal with peoples’ online experience all day, looking at how a webpage (through copy and design) determines user experience. That’s my experience, as an outsider coming into this world.

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#45

Occasionally, I buy instruments for the same reason I buy all my recorded music. I’m fortunate to be able to support people doing creative and beautiful things and I want them to be able to continue.
Particularly, very small, open-source “companies”, made up of one to a few people, coding and building modules in a barn or at their kitchen table, building innovative and inspiring things, deserve support.
I don’t think it coincidence that strong communities form around creators like these. I very much enjoy participating in these communities. They tend to support a more generous and open intent.

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#46

It’s not a universal reaction. This is a community that rewards personal motivation and effort and encourages an autodidactic attitude. This is attractive for many of us. And I’m personally not all that bummed if it excludes a few looky-loo drive-bys who aren’t all that motivated to make a real contribution, both to the community, and to their own personal creative development.

That being said, could we do more to smooth out the early part of the learning curve? Absolutely, we could, and we will. These things take time. Sometimes a great deal of time.

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#47

“I can do most of that stuff on my laptop” is what I will continue to tell myself (and do) until I can afford to purchase a Grid + Norns combo. This is in line with what @junklight was saying earlier…they’re beautiful tools that are a pleasure to use.

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#48

for me personally there’s also the matter of “can” vs “will”.

Can I do most of this on my laptop? Almost certainly.

Will I? Especially after a long day of working on my laptop? Odds say no.

norns in particular has just been an absolute delight to dig into and money/time well spent in my book. Probably the last similar instrument that captured me so was the nord micro modular several years ago, and this is just leagues more accessible/flexible than that. Plus you know, it’s got an active community that’s a subset of a community I’m already active within and love, bonus!

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#49

For me, the most important characteristic of any instrument or tool is the user experience: how easy and enjoyable is it to accomplish my goal. The controls on mainstream personal computers (keyboard, mouse, track pad, touch screen) work pretty well for typing text and pointing at things, less well for fine manipulation of graphics in drawing software or adjusting skeuomorphic knobs and dials in audio software.

Just because it “can” be done on a general purpose computer doesn’t mean it’s easier or more fun to do. Often it’s tedious and more difficult than using a purpose-built device.

There are plenty of peripherals you can attach to a general purpose computer to help solve some of those problems: drawing tablets, MIDI keyboards and faders, etc. You might even need more than one such peripheral to achieve a level of interaction similar to a purpose-built device, but then you’re juggling multiple boxes and cables and fiddly wireless connections and batteries. One well-designed purpose-built device is usually much easier to use, more convenient to use, and when appropriate, more fun.

The reason we even consider using a general purpose computer for these things often comes down to cost. With the HUGE assumption that you already own a computer, the cost to make it do some of these things is close to zero, also assuming you’re using free/open source software. If cost is the most important factor, then yeah, do it on your computer.

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#50

So I think that this is a fundamental ideological thing.

Form follows function and making art can be viewed as materialist in nature. Let’s take film for example. When it was first developed you had to splice by hand. Every shot mattered and directors thought through length of shot - valuing what was in each frame. With the emergence of computer editing, shots got much much shorter because of ease. Thus we got grand films by Michael Bay. Now Tarkovsky had to rely on a system where he cut by hand, and people like him who did big films were forced to think differently.

For myself I know I can do everything on my computer. But I choose things that will inspire. We can all get drunk on cheep beer, but a nice champagne is about experience.

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#51

Oh I’m with you there. For me personally, it’s currently a matter of “can afford” vs “can’t afford” the purchase of a Norns/Grid combo. There is no choice, and there are no odds…I either do something creative with the available tools or I don’t.

Now that the sentence has been quoted twice, I hope I’m not coming across as the guy who’s declaring “I can do all of that on my laptop, what’s the point?”. Quite the opposite is being stated in my original post. I look at Norns as something that I can’t wait to get into, when the time (and funds) come. For now I’m just convincing myself that everything’s gonna be alright in the meantime.

I’ve worked full-time as a developer for the past 18-ish years so I’ve logged a lot of screen time. For me the key to coming home and still being inspired to sit in front of a screen and attempt to be creative is using a different OS.

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#52

I think I read your original post with this intent in mind, sorry if pulling it out of context misrepresents you.

It was just a good pullquote for me to riff on with my personal feelings about this subject.

I made music with just a busted ass laptop for many years, including many of my favorite works. It definitely can be done (and joyfully so at times!). That said, these days I’m glad to have other options as well.

Artists gonna art however they can.

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#53

No problem! I could never really be upset with someone who uses a DR-110 hand-clap button as an avatar. :slight_smile:

I just wanted to restate my position for future reference.

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#54

So I like that you own this. Thanks for admitting that.

Im totally self-taught as well though… I’ve rebuilt circuits in my tube amp by looking at schematics online, built countless cases and amp cabinets by hand, built my own guitars, built diy pedals, etc etc… So I’m no stranger to figuring stuff out on my own.

I think its the attitude of exclusion that you stated above is totally what I picked up on, and for me… I just don’t gel with that vibe, personally. Why exclude people that may show interest, the ‘drive bys’ as you said?

#55

Honestly? It’s because conversations like this one get tedious quick. Fortunately they are by far the rare exception.

#56

Well with that I can wholeheartedly say I ll never support any of these products or this community. You just proved my point fully and confirmed everything I was saying.

#57

Sorry I offended you. You could potentially choose not to take it so personally and try to learn something from this forum. Or not. Have a nice day.

#59

I’m confused at how monome is exclusive. Mysterious and open to inretpretation? Yes. Your criticism is like a health nut criticizing a fast food joint for being exclusive by not including “healthy” options on their menu. Or an Italian restaurant for not having sushi. Straightforward and prescriptive is not the intent of monome, from what I have seen. If anything, this community is the most inclusive and puts an incredible amount of energy in trying to experience and understand rather than label and criticize. I have no doubt that you could email basically anyone on this forum, including the makers and developers at monome, and get an answer to any question you have. That doesn’t feel very exclusive to me. If you don’t like the approach and aesthetic, then you don’t. That’s all it means.

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#60

I see from your profile that you’re from Chicago… There are quite a few folks in here from there…

Perhaps before jumping to conclusions that honestly seem to have been practically inevitable based on the tone and assumptions you seem to have brought to the discussion, you might want to meet up with some of these good folks…

As mentioned elsewhere, this community is a very warm and open place, and the members are incredibly generous and helpful, even to relatively clueless newbs like me…

If you stick around long enough to read more threads, you will start to see that the community takes a great deal of care to maintain a kind, even loving, vibe, in no small part due to many members having felt offended, abused, excluded, attacked, or otherwise generally bummed out in various other forums, groups, and virtual neighborhoods…

You seem like a smart person and you are clearly fishing in some musically simpatico waters…

Why not relax, spend some time exploring the community, and see why the folks who make it up treasure it so much?

My guess is that you will eventually want to stay on…

One more thing, which has already been said but is worth repeating… Monome isn’t a big corporate capitalist entity… it’s basically two people, artists at that, pursuing a rather visionary path of creating instruments and systems that are inherently open to reinterpretation by their users…

Some of the users are so advanced and have so many skills that they are writing new code at a fundamental level, or building hardware extensions (see Teletype for a great example)…

The users are exploring porting code into different software environments, building Max patches or MaxforLive devices, even building home brew hacks of the official Monome hardware…

There are developments in connecting Monome hardware to that of other makers, such as Mannequins Just Friends and W/, Orthogonal Devices ER-301, and others…

In a context like this, I can assure you from my own experience that this stuff takes some time to grok…

I’ve been a member for over a year and am still pretty clueless about much of the technical aspects… I don’t code, solder, design… I’m a musician who has been playing guitar, bass and Korg MS20 for decades, so I’m sometimes confused by things I read here, but that’s a great way to get inspired to learn more…

Anyway, I hope you will keep an open mind and keep reading!

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#61

I think we should get back to the original question ,
(which to me at least, is much more interesting than if something is marketing hyperbole or not)

first observation I’d have, is the decision of laptop vs single purpose (SPC), I think comes often down to what musicians want and to some extent technical background.
I think generally to get the most out of SPC requires more investment in time, and often more technical knowledge to get the most out of them - and this is rewarded by a real sense of building your own instrument.

note : I said generally, there are exceptions to this, some just use ‘as is’ with patches developed by others.

given that, I can only ever give a personal opinion, so this is mine, based only on what I own and actually use ( and I get asked quite a bit about this )

laptop - I use for DAW, and for other software, also where I want a screen.
they come in all shapes and sizes from $500-$5000, you can make it an instrument, absolutely no problem - with some midi hardware/controller , you can make it so you don’t need to interact directly with it whilst making music - technically it can do anything the following can do (at least software wise)

rPI (w/ PiSound for me) : its pretty powerful, cheap, enough that you can easily dedicate it to a single purpose e.g. an FX
really cost is the driving factor - its cheaper than most guitar pedals, so you can have a few lying around that just wake up and do their thing :slight_smile:

Bela (w BeagleBone Black) : for me this is all about I/O an minimal latency, because of its analog I/O (5v) , its very easy build your own instruments and interface it to other things, and the low latency kernel and PRU use, make it ‘feel alive’ (much more than rPI solutions)

Bela Salt: so the eurorack module form of Bela, ok this was a bit expensive.
But I’ve used it SO much , code portable from Bela, same low latency.
BUT I love being able to integrate computing power directly into eurorack with direct CV I/O its awesome - and being in the rack, its not something cluttering my desk.

I think the beauty of SPC in a eurorack form, is not only are they versatile, but you have them surrounded by other modules to supplement them, and it feels all so natural… e.g. you can do things like create weird digital oscillators but then feed them into a lovely analog filter… or drive it by a eurorack sequencer.
… so you don’t have to build everything on the SPC.
(my latest projects is using one to integrate Eigenharp and Soundplane directly into Eurorack)

Bela Pepper is going to the lower the entry price considerably to this, and Im super excited by this!

Axoloti : I love axoloti :heart: - its straight forward and to the point, ridiculously cheap, and much more powerful than specs would point out (because its pretty close to bare metal) - its also really easy to interface it to things directly, and again much lower latency than a rPI .
but, again its cheap enough you can use it more like a pedal. (lots of people own a few of them)

Organelle : this is really the ‘odd one out’ for me, partly because its not cheap ($500) , but the reason I love it, is it 100% complete - it has a keyboard, screen, controls - you need nothing else to just play it on the couch, and being a complete form factor, i can develop patches for it, and know every organelle owner can use them if they want…
also because of this, and the number of patches (and I guess time its been around), it has more musician using it than others… a less ‘technical’ audience.

Nebulae : ok, I’d actually disagree in some ways with this being in the list.
what Ive learnt, is it seems 95-99% of Nebulae owners are only interested in the granular looper, they are not really that interested if is a rPI, or thats extendable or not, and in that sense it’s not that different from any other digital module.
(and things like O&C would be better to discuss really but then the topic will quickly turn into ‘multi purpose’ modules vs single purpose!)
but as a programmer for sure, it’s really nice to extend, and I hope to help improve the support for 3rd party modules on it - and then much of what I said about Bela Salt is applicable.

thats it , I think … Im a bit of an addict to them, but thats also because once you get deeply into one of them - you tend to find your code and knowledge is portable to others , so the time investment is reduced - and so from there, I just pick n choose between them based on the various different properties they have…

I hope, in the above Ive shown , where I think each has its strength…

one last thing, Id say is…
ALL these SPC have great communities, where you can get help, and advice (as well as patches) , and also some great discussion surrounding building instruments - for example, they helped me gain the confidence to start building hardware - and helped me through that process.

… and I think that community spirit, is also part of the attraction to me.

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#62

Laptops to me do not feel like instruments. The entire experience, from the aesthetic to the methods of interaction, are perfected for functional software but don’t allow (me) any type of self expression.

This is very possibly because I work on one all day doing design, and removing that work mindset from the object is hard for me.

The word “object” is interesting to me. I enjoy nice objects. How they look and feel. What they weigh. The quality of the build. If it allows for fun/self expression as well it is an extra.

This mix of being a lovely and minimal piece of design, a slab of metal, and a sound computer sold norns for me. The minimalism brings mystery, the lack of controls lessen discoverability, and the affordance of the device is to an extent unlimited. This combination goes against common design principles (which can upset jobbing designers who value traditional UX over visceral attraction), what we try to achieve normally, which in a way to me makes it feel like a piece of art.

The same can be said of the grid. It is literally covered in signifiers but the discoverability is almost non existent, because the user needs to define it.

I can look at the norns for long periods of time, just look at it, and get enjoyment from the process of studying the design.

This is why I would not buy an Organelle. Not a bash, I just find it ugly.

The norns and similar are, for me, ways to use a computer as an instrument without the distraction of a modern fully featured computer. The Teletype intrigued me for the same reason, trying to see if it’ll work in my tiny rack. You get the logical capabilities of a computer, the almost unlimited potential, without the size and distractions.

And then (I could go on but am on a phone so writing this is hard) you have the interaction. Keyboard and trackpad don’t do it for me. I want physical controls. I want to hold the dial, feel the button depress. It’s very important to me.

Laptops can do everything and more all the hardware can do, but it doesn’t give you the same experience. It’s why we still listen to vinyl, the process is a ritual. Making a nice coffee is a ritual. Taking the time to build your rack, choose the module, assemble it, plug in the cables. All part of a physical ritual which takes the making of sound into a different space. At least for me.

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#63

For me, any live coding using Tidal or GUI heavy work with max or pd is ideal on a laptop. There are paths that these tools lead you down that are somewhat unique. I’m not usually a fan of DAWs for performing, but they are great for post production after the music has been made.

Pi Sound, Norns, and Organelle are ideal single use computers that can be reprogrammed and focused to do a musical task. They are fun boxes that I would incorporate into a larger hardware setup with mixer and effects.

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#64

funnily enough i’m on lines right now because i’m having a bad computer day. too many things wanting to update, video editor playback being choppy for no apparent reason, notifications chiming in annoyingly, and of course the ever present allure of the internet.

even on a good computer day though, making music on one has never felt as fluid as using a dedicated device. there are lots of little things that add up to a hiccupy process, like the time it takes to close a live set and load an alternate version, or alphabetically scrolling through way too many plugins to find something. (i love uad but you’re forced to have their entire bundle on your system even if 90% of it is forever in demo mode…bleh.)

i think they also offer a feeling of limitlessness that lands you in frustrating places once you approach max cpu, whereas dedicated hardware’s built-in limitations mean you’re almost never lagging, glitching, crashing.

best of both worlds though…there are so many things i do with a mouse and a screen that would be dreadful without them.

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