very interesting read @LLK, thank you for the insights into your thought process…

it actually made me think, we really should all be very appreciative to ALL these people making these products, that give us so many choices …so we can find the ‘right one’ for us.
they are basically all 1-2 person companies(*), who have put a tremendous amount of work.
I personally have no doubt at all, that they all have a huge belief in what they are doing, and I know they all support their communities incredibly well (**) - oh and all are open source (yeh!)

lets take axoloti as example, as some might not know it (and he is the ‘smallest’ i think :wink: )
Axoloti is just Johannes, he designed and manufactured the hardware, he wrote the firmware (its not linux!) , he wrote the editor (its not using pd/sc or whatever) , he wrote all the musical objects .
he then packs and ships it for 65 euro!
Ive spoken to him a lot, and his motivation is/was to give the Maker community a good quality audio product… something that beginners/schools could ‘get their feet wet’ with.

but its not just Axoloti - all of them - Monome, C&G, Blokas (PiSound) , Bela , QuBit - they are all just a few people, taking ‘a risk’, trying to give us something that fits our desires, our budgets and try to inspire us.

thank you

(*) ok, bela is a structured a bit different… as it was a spin off from QMC.
(**) its quite amazing, so much has happened in such a short space of time!

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Yes I could spend hours (really, I’m that broken and insane) discussing all the specificities of the different alternatives (Axoloti being one that admire a lot) and why I chose Norns over those but I’m already I bit tired because writing takes so much energy out of me. Still I felt I really needed to contribute here. But yes, they’re all pretty small businesses and discussing their various choices, what differentiate them, the whys and the hows, I think is a fundamental and really inspiring thing to do. Once again, very good topic by @zebra

Well said.

It frustrates me when people implicitly assume some sort of nefarious, deceptive, capitalistic greed in the makers of musical instruments – when it seems to me that in most cases, they are just people who love music and want to make something special that people will appreciate, tend toward generosity, and aren’t really interested in business for its own sake.

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Hey All,

Just wanted to say sorry I was too quick to move to judgement on Monome stuff. Thanks for dealing with that attitude, and sorry to interrupt the flow of some really cool stuff going on here. I’ve throughly enjoyed this forum up to and even including the little bump in the road I had and I’m looking forward to continue to learn everything I can from y’all. Had a really nice PM from @zebra who is obviously super passionate and really empathetic as well. Nice to see all these good folks around here!

Cheers.

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this thread and his latest detailed post are perfect examples why i like @zebra and am drawn to projects he is involved in…thanks for sharing

also must say i was kinda conflicted seeing my name next to Z and the others in @LLK post above (they have all added so much tangible benefit to the community over years) . i dont doubt your sincerity but it struck me as odd to have affected somebody else’s worldview on electronics/computers as much as they have done so for me

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Yeah it’s not so much about being a talented coder / hardware maker / etc. To make an impact here. Just sharing your sound research, your appreciation of those tools, you relationship to them and so on. It holds power. I could have quoted @alanza @Justmat @jasonw22 @Angela or @instantjuggler too, I don’t know, it’s the individualities AND the multitide that makes the wealth for me. But don’t feel conflicted, reading your input here, listening to your sonic research / releases using Aleph, your thought process, I value it immensely, and there’s 0 reason in my mind to try to evaluate it against what others brought to the table, if it’s more, if it’s less, it’s just here and means a lot.

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At the risk of veering off the original topic again, this thread and its detour demonstrates yet again how this community is practicing a rather remarkable form of psychic immune system and self healing through patience, kindness, sanity and open communication…

I’m glad you’re here, @909one

And others have written meaningfully about how the experience of new arrivals could possibly be made a bit less confusing…

I think there is a real opportunity there, and would be happy to serve on any kind of working group to look at the newbie experience, having been one not so long ago…

As an analogy, my experience with the Mannequins (poetic) “manuals” has been largely confusing, but their new “map” for Mangrove is hugely enlightening…

Something along those lines could help the newcomer to Monome, and I believe that being helpful is “inclusive”… And at the same time I also believe that being poetic and somewhat obscure is intriguing and inspiring…

No reason not to strive for the best of both worlds…

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I figured thats what you meant

Also illustrates the unique nature of community here where musicians, learners & highly technical folk inspire each other via overlapping thread topics

I think back to the thread about mixers or desktop instruments where tehn basically was getting our input on potential product we could all use (i recall discussing preferred midi, power, and i/o formats)

In hindsight it either led directly to or heavily informed some design choices for norns…as a result i felt more personally invested in the device than some other SPCs available

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When I think of an SPC I think of it as a physical/mental/emotional/social separation for the purpose of breaking existing connections in order to create new ones.

Making music in the box is a bit like a buffet where you can try many things, but it’s hard to focus on a specific food or cooking process. Every discussion is tied around the food as it exists in the buffet or how it is in relation to outside of the buffet. You can’t separate it from the buffet and the community that’s formed around the buffet.

When you talk about creating music in a DAW you bring along the physicality, process, and community that’s already tied to making music in that DAW.

I don’t think an SPC has to have a physical separation if it fulfills the role of separation. I like that ORCA is in the equipment category for that reason. It’s technically software but it’s so different from other music making processes that it breaks with existing connections and encourages the formation of new ones.

Another piece of equipment that I like is Expert Sleeper’s General CV. It’s a case where it sort of needs to be physically separate because otherwise you get stuck mentally thinking about the types of music you would make with general MIDI, but bringing it out into the modular world gets you out of that mindset. It’s out there enough that as far as I know it doesn’t have its own community, but sometimes I like having the opportunity for solitary exploration without knowing about what anybody else is doing.

I’m going to chime in with my perspective, because my brief experiences owning an Organelle and Norns were a bit atypical (especially Norns), but it shaped a lot of my current and (hopefully) future work.


First I had the Organelle, which I originally bought as a cheaper and more flexible alternative to an OP-1, which I had really wanted for a longggg time. Though my frustrations with PD eventually led me to part ways with it (I’m spoiled by Max’s comparatively easy UI, and PD being somewhat lower-level made me rather just use Csound or something text-based), I look back fondly on it because it was my first experience with Linux! I remember plugging in an HDMI cable for the first time and feeling really cool but also really nerdy at the same time when the Linux boot screen popped up, and I loved it.

*Quick disclaimer to mention that this was before Orac and other developments were released to make the Organelle even more flexible and easy to use with other tools like Csound and Supercollider. I could totally see myself returning to the Organelle someday, especially after becoming much more comfortable with Linux (spoiler alert for the rest of this post).


Not long after moving on from the Organelle, Norns was announced. For some context, I had just finished my last semester of school. My capstone project was a trio of simple Web Audio API experiments (Javascript woo!), and to host them publicly, I set myself up with a DigitalOcean server (more Linux yay!). So at this scripting-heavy place in my life Lua seemed like a breeze, but the real intimidating factor was Supercollider. But because of how open the Norns design was, though looking back now I was still quite a Linux novice, I boldly decided to try and get Csound running instead of, or alongside, Supercollider. And I did actually. With a few helpful pointers in the Norns Development thread, I got it working on a proof-of-concept level by configuring Crone/JACK to route the audio accordingly. I even got Lua to send OSC messages to Csound so I could get the full Norns experience going.

But like anything, I quickly realized that the more things I learned, I learned more about what things I didn’t know. At some point, it just became too overwhelming thinking about, as a highly inexperienced developer/programmer, how I was going to shoehorn this comparatively niche use case of Norns into the environment that was still somewhat in development by people who already have a good clue of what to do. Additionally, I was saving up money as I was preparing to move from Boston to California, and since my time with Norns had been almost entirely devoted to figuring this out instead of, you know, using it as a musical device, I parted ways with Norns as well.


I hope this doesn’t sound like I didn’t enjoy my time with those devices, because that’s not true at all. I greatly admire the design, philosophies, and people behind both Organelle and Norns, and even more people are doing amazing things with them as developers and artists. But what I appreciated the most about them was that they were both incredible learning experiences which not only furthered my general love of programming and all that, but also grew into a love for programming and configuring standalone, “single-purpose” devices.

These days, I’ve got a couple of regular Raspberry Pis and a Bela that I use for various things as I have needs or ideas pop up, and then I take the time to learn how to bring them into fruition. This past week, I got one of my Pis to run a simple C program (!) that consists of delay with a lowpass filter (thanks musicdsp.com) in the feedback loop. (With a USB audio interface and the JACK API). I even gigged with it last night, and it looked so silly with the Pi taped onto the interface, and then with a small breadboard with a single encoder and jumper cables taped on top of the Pi. On top of that, even though I was just doing a modular set with the Pi alongside, I still needed my laptop and an ethernet cable to SSH into it and get it going, so this was like top level silly. But wow, how rewarding is it to perform with something you created yourself!?

TLDR my enthusiasm for single purpose computers isn’t just in the separation in form and process from laptops and the like. Especially in the case of open source devices, it’s also about the learning experiences that can be had from them!

I have my own ideas for devices/instruments/etc, and I dunno if they’ll ever become a reality, but if they do, it certainly wouldn’t be possible without the journey that my past experiences has sent me on. And already I know that it will important to me to share that knowledge / open source it for the next person/people to learn and grow from too.

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Damn. To have that disposable Thinkpad money…

I’ll add to the chorus that says this comes down to preference.

I’ve made my best music with a combination of a laptop and analog keyboard synths. In terms of sampling/chopping/sequencing workflow, nothing can beat Ableton IMO. Maschine is great in terms of tactile feel and muscle memory for processes like building drum kits out of disparate parts, so I use that too.

In contrast, I’ve finished little to no publicly available music using my modular, but I love it so much I could give it hugs and kisses. It houses my favorite single-purpose computer (Maths). Two of them, in fact! Plus it looks fookin’ book. I get half of my enjoyment out of just staring at it…

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He said x220’s, which run about $100 these days and are still quite capable little guys. Cool shape too. (Dunno about “disposable,” that seems hyperbolic, but “set and forget” or “single purpose” makes sense to me)

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“Why computers” (at all) is something I’m currently struggling with a lot at the moment. Or, what is a computer, is there something on the boundary of computer/not computer.

More interesting/productive has been the process of interfacing with low-level “analog” logic elements, and embracing their analogness, metastabilities, hysteresis effects and so on. the fine line between determinacy/indeterminacy.

Logic+ analog feedback, the first memory elements (RS latches, flip flops) were discovered in just this way. Which is of course “illogic”, since the relationships this feedback expresses are by definition, nonsensical… X = not(X) and so on.

(But for me still a long way to go here…)

anyway – not worrying about [Turing] “completeness”. re-emphasizing synthetic modes (of assemblage, of “Cybernetic Serendipity”) rather than analytic (e.g. modern industrial coding practices, which I’m immersed in most of the time for work).

Anti-Turing, anti-Helmholtz. But “anti” in the sense of turning things around. There’s a sense where “anti” indicates a huge debt. It’s just subverting the entire structure from within. Synthetic rather than analytic; immanent rather than transcendent.

The point where it’s no longer a computer, is where it becomes most interesting for me. But then too, it has to be almost a computer. Almost/no longer. This point of indistinction (which is always provisional) is the aim.

Live coding aims in a similar direction, certainly I’m inspired by recent developments (Orca etc.) and consider my interests to be along similar lines.

Also – rediscovering or at least reading about early work of Erkki Kurenniemi (DIMI experiments), Michel Waisvisz (Crackle, early circuit bending) David Rosenboom (biofeedback). I’m not directly pursuing any of these things; like live coding it’s just more inspiring than anything…

Anyway – besides being of questionable relevance, my laptop is just a horrible interface with latency (keys/touchpad), apps (Logic) frequently running out of memory, audio drivers not always showing up, perpetual notifications, having to be online to deal with software licenses, etc. I think others have covered these points.

Plus the laptop is so small. The phone – even worse, it encourages us to shut out the rest of the world and become locked in the platform. But the laptop is not better in any essential sense… And they’re already on the way to convergence. Still – I’m writing this on a laptop. We find ways to subvert the structure, I guess… But on the question of size – the “instruments” I like to work with are body-sized. It should be impossible to keep the whole “instrument” in view. So you have to move around, you have to have some awareness of your physical surroundings. The original arp 2600 got this exactly right.

Now – a lot of studios have desktops and huge screens… I can see the benefit of this but have not gone there myself.

And of course one could compose an instrument out of 5-6 small “boxes” or “movable parts” (the latter a concept from Robert Hood).

So I have basically 100% negative associations with the laptop and the less I rely on it, the more creative possibilities are opening up for me. But I have to rely on it still for many things (recording, mixing, …)

However, I’m still not that interested in the “single purpose computer” because (aside from also being very small) the elements it yields (I fear, I don’t know…) are still not enough low-level, not enough unstable, or “open” (to analog effects) to cross the threshold of interestingness right now.

So – is the “single-purpose” computer really single-purpose enough? Perhaps the concept could be pushed even further? And in pushing it further, at what point do the presuppositions of modern industrial coding practices (reusability, maintainability, infinite version control, etc.) become obstacles?

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This causes me to ponder the use of computing resources to provide a ridiculously huge amount of sonic “choices”…

I love my laptop in many ways but find that I’ve stuffed it so full of plugins and samples and controllers that I’m almost suffocating under the bloat and creep of it all…

I like the idea of pointing the resources of a small processor at other aspects of musicking… not sure exactly what that means but inspired by your talk of analog properties…

Sorry if this is obscure but I was enjoying the mental pictures your post evoked in my brain…

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I’ve really enjoyed reading through this topic. I’ve previously had a teletype and am now waiting on a Bella Salt. I think for me the attraction of these SPCs is around the ‘instrumentness’ of them. By that I think I mean its identity or meaning as an instrument. The Teletype is very flexible and could be doing a broad range of things in a modular instrument but it also has very specific affordances. So to me it brought with it specific approaches and possibilities rather than a completely blank slate.

The Bella Salt is much more open and undefined but I have a specific role in mind for it that has developed on from the Teletype and where I was unable to take that instrument - but also where I would never have known to go if I had not used it.

I think situating these SPC modules in my modular is also about them forming something that is an instrument rather than a host of instruments. I guess basic conveniences like the patching being contained in one portable item come into this but I think there is something else going on for me at least that is not necessarily practical but about how I approach and think about my modular as a self-contained instrument.

I also wanted to mention the parallel conversation here about the communication of the functionality of of devices (marketing etc). I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately, particularly in relation to Serge Tcherepnin’s patch programability philosophy of providing a lower layer of functionality in modules that allows the electronics to come to the foreground with its own language. In the case of a module being capable of a massive range of possible uses, especially in conjunction with other modules, maybe the vagueness we sometimes see in descriptions is about a reluctance to limit what something is, or dictate to someone how something might be used.

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I prefer no-purpose computers personally.

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Constraints help to think creatively in many situations. A single purpose computer is also a constraint which can be a good thing. Making Music by Dennis DeSantis actually has a chapter about that:

https://makingmusic.ableton.com/arbitrary-constraints

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this is something I’ve started to do recently too, just so I can ‘focus’ a bit more, rather than drown in a sea of possibilities. Bela Salt is playing an important role in this for me.
I’d love to hear more about your plans for Salt.

It does make things a bit more manageable! For Bella Salt I basically want to build a digital programmer that can have it’s stages selected by cv or gate. So like if you combined a SYNTHWERKS PGM-4X4 with a Doepfer A152 so that you can instantly change a bunch of parameters but in a non linear way. Pretty simple but I think it will help reign in the chaos.

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